[bd71]

So I've had the Kokish Relay in my agreements for a short enough period of time that the need for responder to show a bust/double-negative has never come up.

What is the recommended approach here?

After 2C-2D-2H-2S-3C, 3D seems like a reasonable bust bid (comments/disagreements welcomed). But what about after a 3D "rebid"?

I'm more interested in the general approach rather than specifics, but the problem hand here was in ACBL's April Bridge Bulletin "Bidding Box" section...what to do with this as responder after opener has shown hearts and diamonds via Kokish?

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JT87542

[wyman]

I would just bid 4H with that hand, even if you swapped my minors and partner showed H+C. There's no real bust bid, but fast arrival applies.

[ArtK78]

2♥ response to 2♣ should show a bust hand.

[aguahombre]

 ArtK78, on 2013-April-01, 22:48, said:

2♥ response to 2♣ should show a bust hand.

The question was about the Kokish Relay system. A 2H bust bid is not part of it, because it gets in the way of the 2H relay itself. 2D is waiting or negative; what you believe 2H "should" show is a different matter.

[Vampyr]

I think that having a second negative is overrated. With a poor hand and a long minor, Leb to the minor. With a poor hand and a long major, transfer after partner's expected 20-22 balanced and then pass. With a poor balanced hand, pass partner's 2NT rebid or raise partner's suit to game.

[campboy]

 bd71, on 2013-April-01, 20:26, said:

I'm more interested in the general approach rather than specifics, but the problem hand here was in ACBL's April Bridge Bulletin "Bidding Box" section...what to do with this as responder after opener has shown hearts and diamonds via Kokish?

63
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JT87542

What does 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣ mean? For me it shows this sort of hand -- wants to play in 3♣ opposite 22-24 balanced, which is the range we put through Kokish.

[ArtK78]

 aguahombre, on 2013-April-02, 01:14, said:

The question was about the Kokish Relay system. A 2H bust bid is not part of it, because it gets in the way of the 2H relay itself. 2D is waiting or negative; what you believe 2H "should" show is a different matter.

Actually, it is not a different matter. If the opener knows that responder has some values due to the failure to make the 2♥ negative, it makes the Kokish Relay system more effective. Opposite a negative, opener may just sign off at 3NT with a very powerful hand. Now, a refusal to complete the relay can be used as a natural call.

I understand that the 2♥ negative was not a part of the original question, but it should be considered.

[wyman]

 ArtK78, on 2013-April-02, 05:41, said:

Actually, it is not a different matter. If the opener knows that responder has some values due to the failure to make the 2♥ negative, it makes the Kokish Relay system more effective. Opposite a negative, opener may just sign off at 3NT with a very powerful hand. Now, a refusal to complete the relay can be used as a natural call.

I understand that the 2♥ negative was not a part of the original question, but it should be considered.

On the other hand, you can just make 2N unlimited if 2D is positive, so kokish is somewhat less useful.

edit: note that I'm not saying Kokish isn't useful combined with a positive 2D, just that if you're playing an ambiguous 2D, it's MORE useful. Of course that doesn't mean that overall it's not better to play a positive 2D and the less useful kokish -- just that kokish adds less in this case.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Kokish Relay - How does responder show a bust?
I'm not that familiar with Kokish... but:
I think the only way is to PASS a natural NF rebid by Opener.
I think you can pass his direct 2S, his indirect 3H and the "lower" 2NT .

[Vampyr]

 campboy, on 2013-April-02, 03:18, said:

What does 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣ mean? For me it shows this sort of hand -- wants to play in 3♣ opposite 22-24 balanced, which is the range we put through Kokish.

What do you use 2NT for (where you bid 3♣)? I think that the ability to get out with a minor-suit bust will be more useful if you put a lower range through Kokish.

 wyman, on 2013-April-02, 07:37, said:

On the other hand, you can just make 2N unlimited if 2D is positive, so kokish is somewhat less useful.

edit: note that I'm not saying Kokish isn't useful combined with a positive 2D, just that if you're playing an ambiguous 2D, it's MORE useful. Of course that doesn't mean that overall it's not better to play a positive 2D and the less useful kokish -- just that kokish adds less in this case.

I'm interested in what you have to say here -- but I am trying to figure out just what that is and it is making my head hurt. Would you mind rewriting it with fewer negatives? Thanks.

Quote

I think the only way is to PASS a natural NF rebid by Opener.
I think you can pass his direct 2S, his indirect 3H and the "lower" 2NT .

Most people (I think) play their suit-oriented 2♣ openings as GF.

[FrancesHinden]

 bd71, on 2013-April-01, 20:26, said:

So I've had the Kokish Relay in my agreements for a short enough period of time that the need for responder to show a bust/double-negative has never come up.

What is the recommended approach here?

After 2C-2D-2H-2S-3C, 3D seems like a reasonable bust bid (comments/disagreements welcomed). But what about after a 3D "rebid"?

I'm more interested in the general approach rather than specifics, but the problem hand here was in ACBL's April Bridge Bulletin "Bidding Box" section...what to do with this as responder after opener has shown hearts and diamonds via Kokish?

63
72
96
JT87542

You should agree what bids other than 2S mean after 2H.
We play them as transfers, but showing a fractionally better hand than this (one of the top 3 honours to 6 and out). However, the way I was 'originally' taught is that you transfer on this sort of hand - a long suit and nothing. So here you bid 2NT over 2H to show long clubs and little else, and partner can set the final contract.

[fromageGB]

I have played "Kokish" in the context of "compulsory 2♦" and "negative 2♦ / positive 2♥", but never "negative 2♥ / positive 2♦". This last completely destroys the benefits of the 2NT distinctions, because you need 2 point ranges when responder is negative. When he is positive you are playing in game anyway, so a wider range is not so bad. Nobody has explained to me what it is about 2♦ positive that outweighs this benefit of 2♥ positive.

For a bust responder, what you bid after opener has made a third (suit) bid depends on whether that is agreed as forcing. If not forcing, pass is the obvious bid, and my default with no explicit agreement. My assumption is that if absolutely GF in his own hand, opener can jump for his third bid.

For a responder with a long suit, I like what I play with one partner. Responder with a 6 card suit (weak or strong) transfers instead of making the expected reply. Opener can complete the transfer if happy to play there (but responder can continue), bid game in it or ace ask, or bid a new suit forcing. You could alternatively use a transfer after an initial 2♦/♥, ignoring the Kokish puppet, as Frances suggests.

[campboy]

 Vampyr, on 2013-April-05, 12:40, said:

What do you use 2NT for (where you bid 3♣)? I think that the ability to get out with a minor-suit bust will be more useful if you put a lower range through Kokish.

Both minors, weak, though thinking about it it might be more efficient to play it as showing diamonds to avoid 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♦ getting in the way of an opener who was about to show hearts+clubs. I agree that putting the middle range through Kokish is probably inferior.

[fromageGB]

 campboy, on 2013-April-02, 03:18, said:

... 22-24 balanced, which is the range we put through Kokish.

 Vampyr, on 2013-April-05, 12:40, said:

... more useful if you put a lower range through Kokish.

 campboy, on 2013-April-06, 04:40, said:

...I agree that putting the middle range through Kokish is probably inferior.

Trying to piece this together, am I right in my understanding? Currently I play
2NT = 20-21
2♣ 2♦ 2NT = 22-23
2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT = 24-25
but it would be better to invert this and play
2NT = 24-25
2♣ 2♦ 2NT = 22-23
2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT = 20-21
?

That does have the advantage of being able to escape into 3♣/♦ when responder is bust and opener is at the bottom end, but I have not come across this. It also seems to have a problem after a 2♥ positive, so this is probably not what you meant. What ranges are you implying?

[campboy]

Well, the gain from being able to escape into 3m is greatest if you put the lowest range through Kokish. The loss from lead-directing doubles is presumably lowest (just on frequency grounds) if you put the highest range through Kokish. I doubt playing it as the middle range is best, but I suppose it could be. I haven't been playing Kokish long enough to get a feel for which of these issues is more important.

[Flem72]

There exists "stuff" after a 2H dbl neg, adjust for NT range splits:

AFTER THE 2H DOUBLE NEGATIVE

2C-2H 2S --> 2N if no S support. O may be one-suited S or 5-5, S & X (will
bid X and level gives strength: 4X asks: with 2Q, relay, with
support and stiff, bid stiff. After relay, re-relay asks low Q.
2N = 25+ (depends on NT ladder)
3m = F1
3H = 9 tricks, H
3S = 9 tricks, S
3N = H & C. Now, 4C = to play unless O is mega
4C = H & D. Now, 4D = to play unless O is mega
4D = independent H, mega: bid 4H to play, 4S with 2 Q or 4N H & short.
Now, relay asks lowest Q or short.
4H = to play

or

Transfers: 2C-2H:

2S = 22-23 NT hand, R = all transfers. Transfer to 3C, then 3D = both
Ms, 3M = 4 in OM, 4 in C; transfer to 3D, then 3M = 4D, 4OM. Look-
ing for at least 7-cd fit. O breaks transfer with 5-carder. 3S
= relay to 3N.

2N = S, 5+, unbal. Asks 3S with 3-cd support, real bust, 3 else = 4+-
card suit, feature, maybe support, 3N = max 2H call,no S support,
4S = to play, good 2H call, 3+S. O's change of suit is F, 4+.

[Vampyr]

 fromageGB, on 2013-April-06, 05:51, said:

2NT = 24-25
2♣ 2♦ 2NT = 22-23
2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT = 20-21

Not quite. Open your highest and lowest ranges 2♣, and the middle one 2NT. This splits the ranges, which is more convenient, especially when they interfere. Besides, you don't want your 2NT opener to be too infrequent.