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nice fitting hand WHJ- possible philosophy question

Poll: nice fitting hand (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Your call?

  1. Pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Double (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 4S (2 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. 4NT (2 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  5. 5C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. 5D (10 votes [37.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.04%

  7. 5H (2 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  8. 6D (11 votes [40.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.74%

  9. 7D (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2013-March-26, 10:21

So far we have seen a variety of slam tries.

We have 4N as a fake keycard. I think that we can all see that this can't actually help our decision making, since no likely response will tell us anything useful.

We have 4N as a general slam try, but the fact that only one poster suggested it, and another one proposed 4N as keycard, reveals the dangers of using adjective bridge. Partner often has a different understanding. I will say that I think that 4N as a general slam try makes sense, in that we are relatively more likely to want to use it this way than as keycard. However, I doubt that many partnerships have discussed this and this is definitely not an interpretation one would expect even a good partner to assume absent such discussion.

We have 4♠, but the flaw there is obvious. Partner is odds-on to pass, since this is NATURAL call. It is exactly how one bids with 4=6 in spades and diamonds and a willingness to save/bid game to make in diamonds, while checking back for the 4-4 spade fit. This is a no-brainer and those who chose 4♠ have allowed their desire that it be a cuebid to completely override common sense.

We have 5♣. While that should, I think, be forcing, I would be worried that partner may disagree. And even if he didn't pass, I fail to see how our 'cuebid', if he sees it that way, would help him make a good decision.

I think it therefore gets back to making the decision now, without help.

We have posters thinking that slam is odds on, so they bid it. We have posters thinking slam is against the odds, so bidding 5.

I still cleave to the view that partner's 3♥ call suggests a hand that makes slam a relatively poor choice. I'd guess, and it is a guess, that slam will be cold about 25% of the time and would be making on the lead about another 10-20% of the time and would be down a little more than half the time. So I stick with my 5♦ without a lot of conviction.

I would change to Phil's 4N in a heartbeat if I were allowed to announce: 4N, general slam try :P Tho, on second thoughts, '4♠, void-showing' would be even better!
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#22 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-March-26, 10:39

View Postbillw55, on 2013-March-26, 09:58, said:

This seems a little pessimistic. Still, you have shown proficiency with data. I would be interested in a sim.


I don't think sims are good for this kind of spot, but since partner has not splintered, I think that weights his set of hands towards 1-3 in the reds, even though there are plenty of hands that would cue rather than splinter even holding a fourth trump.
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#23 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2013-March-26, 18:49

6♦


"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#24 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2013-March-26, 19:06

View Postmikeh, on 2013-March-25, 14:27, said:

He didn't splinter, despite being marked with 0-1 heart...given RHO's blast on limited high card, there is a good chance of 0.


I don't like bypassing 3NT with minor fit, even if you disagree with whatever partner has for 3♥ here I don't think he denies a hand that would splinter if our fit was a major.
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#25 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2013-March-27, 02:27

Approximate full hands below (pips may have moved, on a train here with no hand records to look at).


Wayne Somerville
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#26 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2013-March-27, 06:57

View Postmanudude03, on 2013-March-27, 02:27, said:

Approximate full hands below (pips may have moved, on a train here with no hand records to look at).



I wouldn't have bid 3♥ with that N hand....I would drive to game. I admit it's close so I'm not saying 3♥ was an error, but It wouldn't have been my choice.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#27 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-March-27, 07:08

View Postmikeh, on 2013-March-27, 06:57, said:

I wouldn't have bid 3♥ with that N hand....I would drive to game. I admit it's close so I'm not saying 3♥ was an error, but It wouldn't have been my choice.


Yep. This hand is a textbook splinter for me, showing a mild slam try. For me, you can bid Three Hearts (non specific raise) with this shape with a raise to four or a full-blooded slam try.
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#28 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2013-March-27, 09:06

I'm sure that north bid 3♥ planning on passing 3N or driving to 5♦ otherwise. It seems quite reasonable to me. He had no idea lefty was about to bid 4♥, if he had known that, he would have splintered.
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#29 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-April-03, 03:53

A quick theoretical question: if North had doubled over 2♥ and followed with 5♦ over 4♥ ((1♥) - 2♦ - (2♥) - X; (4♥) - P - (P) - 5♦) what sort of hand would that show? Does the meaning of a 3♣ advance change things at all?

FWiiW, I am leaning heavily towards the splinter camp on the actual North hand. After all, if you do not make the bid with this hand type then you would probably be better off making the meaning of 4♥ void-showing.
(-: Zel :-)
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