[keylime]

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx
Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

J2NT is a horrible choice of bid here because of the fact that you are flat, it's not your best bid, missing a fourth trump, AND....do you REALLY have mild slam intent?

Bid one spade, and just force partner along. No need to take tons of space to rush partner along to have them give you a response you don't want to hear. After you hear 2H from partner, now your hand takes on an interesting light. We know that pard doesn't have four spades, has six hearts, doesn't have a four card suit to offer, and it minimum. Talk about no stress!

I personally would, if partner was aware, use 2NT as a GF relay, to ask pard to identify certain elements of their hand. 2NT also infers I have heart support. Pard now is going to bid whatever system of responses you agree with (I personally would bid 3C to show an absolute minimum, with 3D asking about controls, with 3H showing 3-4 controls, and after another ask locating three diamonds - now you know slam is looking not that great opposite a flat hand that has a big hole in clubs/diamonds potentially).

Going along in this manner, in whatever form thereof, saves the embarrassment.

[pclayton]

1♠ is pretty clear. If the hand didn't have 4♠, I might trot 2N to simplify the auction.

A natural 2N call here could work. I had a thread on here about a response structure my pard and I worked up. Basically the auction would start: 1♥ - 2N; 3♣ (minimum) - 3♥; 4♣ - 4♦; 4♥. From here its hard to say if responder makes a move. Since Serious 3N was bypassed, 4♣ shows a real mutt.

Continuing a thread we had a few weeks ago, wouldn't it be nice if 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♥ was forcing?

[jahol]

First, thank you for nice discussion.

My feelings:
1) I would always prefer 1S bid in the first round of the auction. I think, the difference between 4-4 and 5-4 fit is just one trick quite often, however, this is a kind of VERY big difference when making game or even slam just! Regarding Jacoby 2NT, I think that is should be definitely bid with FOUR cards support. The difference between three and four cards support seems to me crucial, particularly in slam attempts (and that is what Jacoby is used for, or not?).
2) The potencial 3D bid in the second round of auction (instead of four clubs) is more complicated issue. This bid looks fine, but it seems to me that it can cause problems to my partner (what one should try to avoid all the time). What should partner bid without club stopper? Should it be 3 spades with three cards in spades? And then, is 4C cue-bid for spade slam?? After 3S bid, how can I show to my partner heart support AND a very nice hand? Is 4C REALLY club cue for heart slam after 1H-1S-2H-3D-3NT?? Seems to me, the case is not that easy.
3) With club splinter, I would have bid 4C IMMEDIATELY after 1H call. May I have splinter hand after 1H-1S-2H, if I did not have splinter hand after 1H? I think that an important feature of splinter is enough trumphs in hand for ruffing, i.e. at least four of them. Are three trumphs enough for splinter as soon as partner has shown at least six in his hand? Isn't it better to reserve 4C call for "natural" cue-bid in this sequence?
4) I really think that the hand is definitely worth of slam try. With partner's
Qx--AKxxxx--xx--Kxx
GRAND slam is almost cold and even with 10 points hand very similar to the real one, my partner held
xx--AKxxxx--xx--Kxx
small slam is almost cold.
The question is who should ask about aces. The response should be - the one who can better decide about the final contract. I think that the solution of this question is very difficult for this board.

[pclayton]

Don't agree that 4♣ over 2♥ rebid can't be a splinter. Wouldn't you bid it with: AQxxx, AJx, Qxxx, x?

3♦ over 2♥ is possible, but it leads to confusion later. And I HATE the suggestions about:

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♦
3N - 4♣

as being the way to bid this hand. Temporize TWICE and never support pard? Its laughable if it wasn't the 'proper' way to bid the hand.

How about this:

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥:

2♠ - Non-forcing; 5 to a bad 10.
2N - Puppet to 3♣; but opener needs club tolerance (see below)
3♣ / 3♦ / 3♥ / 3♠ - Natural and game forcing


After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2N - 3♣:

Pass - weak with long clubs.
3♦; either weak or invitational with ♦/♠
3♥ / 3♠; invitational

Is this so tough?

[the hog]

Sorry Jahol, but 4C over a 2H rebid is clearly a splinter whether you like it or not. Look at Phil's example hand in the above post.

This hand shows the value of my earlier suggestion that 2N should be forcing once opener has bid and rebid a suit.

[beatrix45]

Bidding looks OK through opener's 2H rebid. At this point you know:

1. You want to play in hearts
2. You want to play in slam if partner has anything extra
3. You are probably safe at the 5 level

A 3D bid caters to all necessities. It is forcing. It shows a diamond suit. If partner next bids 3H, you can follow with 4C (forcing) with the idea of bidding 5H on the next round. Your bidding is putting pressure on partner but to a good end. You have controls and trump fillers, what he needs is an extra trick - a seventh heart, the spade QJ or a couple of diamond honors. This is the use of old fashioned bidding judgement as opposed to the currently fashionable picture bidding. To my recollection, picture bidding was never supposed to replace bread and butter bidding, but rather to make better use of rarely-used, almost idle bidding sequences.

[firechief]

I think the 4c bid is a splinter in support of hearts. However, I can understand psyching this bid to "simplify" the auction. Bidding a direct 2/1 isn't such a bad choice in an attempt to "simplify." I agree that bidding 2nt after the rebid should be forcing, but it isn't necessary. Playing it as forcing makes many auctions easier to bid, but it loses out when you hold a stiff heart and about 11 or 12 HCPs. With that hand you could easily be on for 4H or 3nt still (partner is allowed to have 7 hearts and rebid just 2). So there's some give and take. If I started with 1s, I don't mind the auction 1h-1s-2h-3d-3nt-4c-4h-5h-p. Alternative would be 1h-1s-2h-4c-4h-4s-5h-p. Here partner devalues his Kx of clubs because he thinks it's terrible opposite a splinter. So maybe the psychic splinter isn't such a good bid with this particular hand. In Europe, it's common to play such a jump as a Q-bid in support of hearts, looking for slam.
Joel

[Winstonm]

Yeah. You got lucky. Hand only produces 11 tricks. There is duplication and no where to park the 2 losing diamonds.

[the hog]

"In Europe, it's common to play such a jump as a Q-bid in support of hearts, looking for slam."

Really? Where? Everywhere I have been plays this as a splinter and not a cue bid.

[firechief]

I've run into pairs from the netherlands and iceland in particular that play it as a Q-bid.
Joel

[helene_t]

I can immagine that this could show a control (Q) (how else would you establish hearts as trump suit?). I would rather play it as Gerber, though. Without further agreements, however, it should be a splinter. If a 2♠ rebid by opener over 2♣ would not show extra (we have had that discussion elsewhere), I would bid 2♣ to avoid this problem. Or I would agree to play Flannery. As a last resort, bid 4NT over 2♥.

[the hog]

"I've run into pairs from the netherlands and iceland in particular that play it as a Q-bid.
Joel "

Joel it is drawing a long bow from your above statement to arrive at the conclusion that this is common in Europe. I have run into some pairs who play 1? 4C as Gerber as well, but I would hardly describe that as a standard treatment. I can tell you for a fact that even weak pairs from Middle Europe, Germany and England would play this as a splinter without further discussion.

Ron

[Cowology]

1S is certainly the right way for responder to begin. I like the use of 2NT (after openers 2H rebid) as GF, but without any sort of agreement we have to find an alternative so I settle for a 3D rebid and move forward from there. Sometimes we overcomplicate things in search of the "perfect solution". Sometimes, particularly with lack of specific partnership agreements, it's best to move foward in a simple and straight forward manner. 3D seems the path of least resistance.

The 4C rebid seems rather pointless to me. It just eats up space and doesn't really accomplish anything. I don't particularly like Jac2NT as it is, and I certainly don't care for it here.

[junyi_zhu]

jahol, on Dec 27 2004, 11:08 PM, said:

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx
Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

Bidding: opponents quiet

Partner-----Me
1H............1S
2H............4C
4H............4S
pass.....

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

Any comments to this disaster?

It's not an easy sequence for standard method because it's hard to force to game over
1H 1S 2H. One solution is to treat 2S over 2H as artificial gameforcing and specify your hand type later. So you can't sign off in 2S over 2H rebid, it's not a big loss though.
There are some relay structure over this 2S convention, but my suggestion is to play 2NT as a featureless waiting bid. 3C/D are natural. 3H is also natural and shows 7 or more hearts. 3S /4C/D is splinter and set up H as trumps. 3NT shows solid hearts.
so now the bidding would go like:
1H 1S
2H 2S
2N(waiting) 3H(slam interest)
4C(nonserious cuebid in C) 4D(last train)
4H(sign off)

[han]

firechief, on Jan 11 2005, 02:46 AM, said:

I've run into pairs from the netherlands and iceland in particular that play it as a Q-bid.
Joel

Could you please ask the people you know in Holland to stop playing this (or at least ask them to be quiet about it). They are giving us a bad name.

More seriously, I agree with Ron, everywhere I have played bridge this is a splinter showing exactly 3-card heart support. Still, it might not be a bad bid, as it shows slam interest, and cards in the pointed suits are more welcome. However, partner would devaluate a useful king of clubs, so I wouldn't bid it (I also think that you are a bit too good).

It would be nice if you had some agreement about how to show slam interest with heart support below 4H.

I agree that the fourth spade is the only flaw for a Jacoby 2NT reponse (which I think is an excellent convention if you update the responses. In fact, I think I'm going to start a new topic about it right now)

[the hog]

Quote Firechief:

"I agree that bidding 2nt after the rebid should be forcing, but it isn't necessary. Playing it as forcing makes many auctions easier to bid, but it loses out when you hold a stiff heart and about 11 or 12 HCPs. With that hand you could easily be on for 4H or 3nt still (partner is allowed to have 7 hearts and rebid just 2)"

From experience I have found that if pd has a 6 card suit, 2NT is rarely the correct place to play. You are betting on making exactly 8 tricks. How often will this happen? If you can bring in the 6 carder you will probably make 3NT. This is the reason why many strong pairs have made 2NT forcing in this situation. It is even systemic in WJ2000 and WJ2005, which is the "standard" Polish system played by most Poles of varying standards on line.