Throwing out 2C control showing after StLuis
#1
Posted 2013-March-26, 10:47
we have gone back to the standard (2D waiting etc) responses.
Showing controls after 2C while very descriptive seems to put the decision back on the 2C opener and we were getting stalled in
game contracts with the bidding too high, too quickly.
Is there anything we can do to improve our 2C bidding or is it better left.
(still learning)
#2
Posted 2013-March-26, 11:22
I used to play Blue Club, which used control showing responses to strong cub openings.
In order to get full benefit from the control showing responses you need to spend lots of time developing fairly elaborate cue bidding agreement.
(If you already know control count, then blackwood and RKCB sequences become quite infrequent). In contrast, placing controls and finding extra length become quite important)
This style can be quite effective, but it requires a lot of work.
#3
Posted 2013-March-26, 11:35
Richard has it right: They can work for the right hands and in the hand of someone who understands the later bidding. But it needs too much work to make it playable.
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#4
Posted 2013-March-27, 07:33
- hrothgar
#5
Posted 2013-March-27, 08:38
han, on 2013-March-27, 07:33, said:
LOL, nice to hear from you Han. We had no kickback disasters, we haven`t had any for a while now.
(still learning)
#6
Posted 2013-March-27, 08:38
#7
Posted 2013-March-27, 08:49
With one partner I play the following without complaint
A = 2, K = 1
2♦ = 0-1 controls
2♥ = 2 controls
2♠ = A + K
2NT = 3 K's, systems on
3♣ = 4 controls
3♦ = 5 controls
etc
#8
Posted 2013-March-27, 09:21
(still learning)
#9
Posted 2013-March-27, 09:42
Where 2C = 23+ or no more than 4 losers
then:
2D = 0 or 1 control ( A = 2, K = 1 control )
2H = 2 Controls (Can be 1 Ace or 2 Kings)
2S = 3 Controls (1 Ace and 1 King)
2NT = 3 Controls (3 Kings)
3C = 4 Controls (2 Aces or 1 Ace and 2 kings)
3D = 5 Controls (2 Aces and 1 king or 1 Ace and 3 Kings)
3H/S // 4C/D = Good 6+cd suit = KQJ10xx or AKJ10xx.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
• Bids after Responder gave controls [ 2D >> 3D ] are normal;
Now, 4NT asks for Queens: Responses are:
5C = no Q
5D = Queen in a minor suit
5H = Queen in a major suit
5S = 2 Queens ( same colour ).
5NT = 2 Queens ( different colour ).
6C = 3 Queens.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
• But after the "GOOD" suit bid [ jumps 3H/3S, 4C/ 4D ] , then 4NT asks for Aces.
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#10
Posted 2013-March-27, 20:10
(still learning)
#11
Posted 2013-March-27, 20:18
#12
Posted 2013-March-27, 22:11
#13
Posted 2013-March-28, 04:29
aguahombre, on 2013-March-27, 22:11, said:
Then it is probably best to pass throughout.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#14
Posted 2013-March-28, 05:39
jillybean, on 2013-March-27, 20:10, said:
I suspect that most people would favor treating this as a balanced hand and either opening in NT or rebidding in NT if possible.
5N isn't a contract that you want to play often, but I wouldn't be surprised if didn't score too badly
6D is down due to the trump losers
6N depends on figuring out that you have three spade tricks and four club tricks.
Most folks will have trouble placing the missing honors.
People who are getting there are probably doing so based on pure power.
North probably says: I have an 11 count and a six card suit. South has a balanced 22 count. Something is bound to work.
And, indeed it does...
2♣ - 2♦
2N - 6N
or something like that
#15
Posted 2013-March-28, 07:56
jillybean, on 2013-March-26, 10:47, said:
Do you really open 2C on a balanced 21 hcp ?
Also, if 4NT in your auction was RKC, how can 5NT be passed ?
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#16
Posted 2013-March-28, 08:11
Personally, I like control showing responses to 2♣ openings. The initial response lets you know if you are limited to game or if you are in the slam zone. Here you know immediately that you have 10 controls and are thus in the slam zone.
I have to agree with Don that the South hand is a marginal 2♣ opening, and then only if it is treated as a 21 HCP balanced hand upgraded due to the strong 5 card suit - in other words, a 2NT rebid. I would never open 2♣ on the South hand if I were treating this as a one-suiter. After the 2NT rebid, even this North would bid a slam eventually, "knowing" that the partnership had 33 HCP.
Where I disagree with Don is the comments about 4NT and 5NT. I assume that the control responses being played are the usual ones - 2♠ shows and A and a K, and 2NT shows 3 Ks. So since South already knows that North has an A and a K, the 4NT, 5♣ and 5NT calls are all natural.
I have some sympathy for North in that South knows the control count and did not bid a slam. But still, unless this partnership has a history of some really bad 2♣ opening bids, North should still bid 6NT.
#17
Posted 2013-March-28, 08:50
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-28, 07:56, said:
When I judge that the hand is worth upgrading, yes.
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-28, 07:56, said:
Also, if 4NT in your auction was RKC, how can 5NT be passed ?
If 4NT was RKC, 5NT can't be passed. 4NT was natural.
I will try to find more hands later.
(still learning)
#18
Posted 2013-March-28, 09:03
hrothgar, on 2013-March-28, 05:39, said:
People who are getting there are probably doing so based on pure power.
North probably says: I have an 11 count and a six card suit. South has a balanced 22 count. Something is bound to work.
And, indeed it does...
2♣ - 2♦
2N - 6N
or something like that
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-28, 07:56, said:
First to Two4: I didn't think treating it as a bal 22 was necessarily offbase, and was a bit surprised when the KNR upgrading machine only gave it a 21.55.
I agree with hrothgar mostly. Something misdirected the auction from a Notrump sequence and combined power assessment.
Did the control-showing 2S response cause opener to rebid 3H instead of 2NT? I am a consistent supporter of staying out of opener's way with 2D most of the time so that the nature of the 2C opening can be shown. In this case, the 2S response didn't get in the way, but opener did with 3H.
Whatever route to the 2NT rebid, afterward responder will get us to slam. Hroth's short route, or some minor-suit probe ending in 6NT seems easy.
#19
Posted 2013-March-28, 09:13
I like Don's Hamada Control method and in this case if 4NT asked for Queens, then South could bid the slam.
#20
Posted 2013-March-28, 09:18
2C 2S
2N 3S (balanced and unlimited // relay to 3N, usually the start of a slam-inv minor sequence),
3N 4D (forced // natural slam try in diamonds)
4N 6N (denies Hx or better // to play)
Maybe others have methods by which they can show a minor 6-4, but I don't. I think that 5C over 4N would be a club Q, but I'm not sure I've discussed this with my partners.
I'm sympathetic to south wanting to introduce hearts, but it's not the choice I'd have made.
"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff