[steve2005]

I was wondering if any one had any ideas for responding with 1♠ and 1-4-4-4 distribution with 12-14 hcp and
bidding goes 1♦-1♠ your bid.

your 1NT range is 12-14 hcp, and your 1N rebid range is 15-17 hcp.

does anyone want to open 1♣ or 1N?

sorry no specific hand, just a general situation

[manudude03]

I open 1D and rebid 2C with those. If it was in range, 1NT would be a valid option too (subject to partnership agreement)

[Phil]

It really depends on the natural of my hand. I can go either way on this one.

If I have a lot of sharp cards - aces and kings, I will rebid 2♣, but with soft holdings and good intermediates, I will opt for 1N.

[the hog]

Phil, on 2013-February-20, 17:49, said:

It really depends on the natural of my hand. I can go either way on this one.

If I have a lot of sharp cards - aces and kings, I will rebid 2♣, but with soft holdings and good intermediates, I will opt for 1N.

So you will show 15-17 when you actually have a 12-14 count? - see the op.
I open 1D and rebid 2C.

[lycier]

I'd rebid 2♣,don't worried about suit quality.

[lalldonn]

I mean unless I'm missing something, if 1NT shows a very different range than we hold then what choice is there but 2♣?

[wank]

the other option would be to open 1nt in the first place. i can't imagine actually exercising this option playing weak NT though.

however, if i had 1444 16 count with a singleton spade honour playing a strong NT, i suspect it would be my choice.

[P_Marlowe]

One reason for opening 1D istead of 1C with 44 in the minors is to be able to bid 2C
in the situation you are currently discussing.
This is not the only reason, but it is one reason for this decision.

If a NT rebid by opener is an option is upto partnership agreement, if opener is always
at least semibal., when making the NT rebid, responder has the option to always rebid his
5 card, if he is weak, intsead of passing NT out.
If responder is weak, the 52 fit will quite often be easier to play than 1NT, and you may
have a 53.

But to have this option, you would need to make the 2C rebid with 4441.

The problem hand is actually not the 4441 12-14 hand, but the 4441 15-17 hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[lowerline]

steve2005, on 2013-February-20, 15:51, said:

I was wondering if any one had any ideas for responding with 1♠ and 1-4-4-4 distribution with 12-14 hcp and
bidding goes 1♦-1♠ your bid.

your 1NT range is 12-14 hcp, and your 1N rebid range is 15-17 hcp.

does anyone want to open 1♣ or 1N?

sorry no specific hand, just a general situation

Open 1♣ when strong enough to reverse.

Open 1♦ otherwise.
I only consider opening 1nt with a singleton honour.

Steven

[PhilKing]

Playing weak no trump, pass with 12-13 with this pattern. You'll thank me one day. With 14, rebid 1NT and hope to live.

The trouble with 1♦ followed by 2♣, is that you play 2♦ on a 4-2 fit instead of hearts on a 4-4 (5-4) fit when partner is 5422 or 5521 with 5-9 points. Pass in no panacea, but will produce better results on average.

As an aside, I strongly recommend the Garozzo 2♥ response to either minor showing 5-10 with 5-4 in the majors. Playing this, 1♦ then 2♣ is fine, since we now won't miss hearts often. It also facillitates better continuations after 1m-1♠-2m.

[MickyB]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-21, 06:59, said:

As an aside, I strongly recommend the Garozzo 2♥ response to either minor showing 5-10 with 5-4 in the majors. Playing this, 1♦ then 2♣ is fine, since we now won't miss hearts often. It also facillitates better continuations after 1m-1♠-2m.

It also allows you to bid 1D:1S, 2C on 1453 without missing heart fits, which will lead to better part-scores and allow 1D:1S, 2D to promise six cards.

[Phil]

the hog, on 2013-February-20, 18:15, said:

So you will show 15-17 when you actually have a 12-14 count? - see the op.
I open 1D and rebid 2C.

Always 2♣ then, but playing a weak NT sometimes means you pass a 1444 12 count too.

[the hog]

Phil, on 2013-February-21, 09:22, said:

Always 2♣ then, but playing a weak NT sometimes means you pass a 1444 12 count too.

Never.

[Cthulhu D]

I play a short club so 1D is unbalanced. Then 1D-1S-1NT promises 4H, and and 1D-1S-2C promises 5 diamonds and 4+ clubs.

But yeah here you have to open 1D so you can make the rebid.

[Zelandakh]

the hog, on 2013-February-21, 18:15, said:

Never.

♠K /♥QJ32/ ♦QJ32 /♣QJ32?

[the hog]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-22, 04:32, said:

♠K /♥QJ32/ ♦QJ32 /♣QJ32?

Ok. But would you count a stiff K as 3 points? I wouldn't.

[jallerton]

MickyB, on 2013-February-21, 07:34, said:

It also allows you to bid 1D:1S, 2C on 1453 without missing heart fits, which will lead to better part-scores and allow 1D:1S, 2D to promise six cards.

It will also lead to worse part-scores, for example when Responder has 4-card club support and has to guess whether Opener has clubs or not.

[awm]

Seems the options are:

1. Rebid 1NT
2. Rebid 2♣
3. Rebid 2♥
4. Open 1NT

My view is that rebidding 1NT is best when you are in range (or perhaps a point off range). This keeps the auction lowest, limits opener's hand, and keeps a number of contracts in play. Of course, if you are considerably out of your 1NT-rebid range this becomes a bad idea.

Rebidding 2♣ seems the normal thing to do when you are out of the 1NT rebid range. This might cause you to lose a heart fit however (unless responder has game values or you play some artificial direct response showing majors). Note that things get a bit easier on this sequence if you play a strong notrump because partner will often preference to 2♦ after which you can bid 2♥ to complete your description (1444 or 0454, extras, not enough to force game though).. whereas playing a weak notrump you can't really do this (because the "out of 1NT rebid range" hands are very minimum and don't want to bid on after the 2♦ preference).

Rebidding 2♥ shows extras of course, so it's only really valid when you have extras. Again, this will apply more in a strong notrump context (because the "out of range for 1NT rebid "hands here are 15-17 and the 17s are good enough to reverse). It is a slight distortion in terms of shape but has the advantage of finding your heart fits. Probably this is the best treatment if you have GF values, or if your clubs are quite poor and you have around 17 high.

Some people open 1NT when in range, but I have found this to lead to many poor results when partner either signs off in spades (oops) or blasts 3NT with three small spades (oops). I guess you could play methods to avoid these issues but they lead to giving the opponents a lot of info on the more common ordinary 1NT openers.

[Free]

Opening 1m and rebidding 1NT is suicide because it shows a much stronger hand in your system. When playing weak 1NT, you might as well take advantage of the situation and open 1NT. You play weak NT to preempt opps, so open 1NT whenever possible. Occasionally you'll end up playing a 5-1 fit at 2-level, but we also preempt opps out of their ♠ contract, or they intervene with 2♠ when partner holds them for a juicy penalty Dbl.

The alternative is opening 1♦ and rebidding 2♣. This also requires attention from your partnership, because you don't necessarily show 5♦ anymore.

[Zelandakh]

the hog, on 2013-February-23, 04:54, said:

Ok. But would you count a stiff K as 3 points? I wouldn't.

No I would not. Nor would I count QJ32 x3 as 9 points. That is precisely the point isn't it? If we thought the hand was worth 12 points we would open it. If you are changing your position from "Never pass a 1444 12 count" to "Never pass a 1444 hand worth a full 12 count" then we have a completely different statement to consider.