[Fluffy]

IMPs

♠-
♥AKQJ104
♦AKQJ5
♣A7

our side is vunerable, partner deals and opens 4♠, RHO passes.

[lalldonn]

Against Jlall I bid 7♦, partner is 2443, what's up!

Oh wait I thought RHO opened 4♠ lol

[Lord Molyb]

partner probably has ♠KQxxxxxx ♥ x ♦ xx ♣ xx *shrugs*
I'll be content with 6 hearts.

[ArtK78]

Clearly, your only options for the final contract are 6♥, 7♥ and 7NT.

RKCB is dangerous because there might be some ambiguity about your subsequent bid of 6♥ or 7♥.

To make 13 tricks, partner needs a trick and an entry. The ♠A along with the ♥9 or the ♦10 works (in which case 7NT is the right spot). The ♣K works by itself (in which case 7♥ is the right spot unless partner also has the ♠A, which would make 7NT the right spot).

Unless you play asking bids over 4♠, there is no way you can find out about the ♣K. Of course, it makes perfect sense for a simple new suit bid to be an asking bid, as the chance that you would want to play a different suit at the 5 level after a 4♠ opening is probably less than 0.5%. But since there are other possibilities besides partner having the ♣K that result in making 7♥ or 7NT, asking for the ♣K is not the be-all and the end-all.

If I have the agreement that 5♣ is an asking bid AND that any bid I make at the 6 level or higher thereafter is to play, then 5♣ is the way to go.

Otherwise, a simple 6♥ (assuming that it is to play) will have to do. I am not going to bet the house that partner has either the ♣K or a trick and an entry.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-February-17, 15:48, said:

Clearly, your only options for the final contract are 6♥, 7♥ and 7NT.

Is partner not allowed to hold ♠AKQxxxxx and out or indeed AKQJxxx and 4 clubs where 7♠ is in the frame.

[ArtK78]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-17, 16:01, said:

Is partner not allowed to hold ♠AKQxxxxx and out or indeed AKQJxxx and 4 clubs where 7♠ is in the frame.

Sure, its possible that partner has that. Although if he has AKQxxxxx he needs the opps spades to break 3-2 to make 7♠, while I can make 7♥ or even 7♦ with very normal breaks in those suits as long as I have an entry and a trick or just the ♣K in opener's hand. And there is certainly no guarantee that partner has 7 or 8 solid (or very close to solid) spades. Even 6♠ could fail if partner has a perfectly normal suit like AQJxxxxx or AKTxxxxx for his 4♠ opening if spades break 4-1.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-February-17, 16:29, said:

Sure, its possible that partner has that. Although if he has AKQxxxxx he needs the opps spades to break 3-2 to make 7♠, while I can make 7♥ or even 7♦ with very normal breaks in those suits as long as I have an entry and a trick or just the ♣K in opener's hand. And there is certainly no guarantee that partner has 7 or 8 solid (or very close to solid) spades. Even 6♠ could fail if partner has a perfectly normal suit like AQJxxxxx or AKTxxxxx for his 4♠ opening if spades break 4-1.

I have an ask that can establish this over 4m but not over 4M - there is room in our structure for a bid which says "I have the nuts outside but no more than a small singleton in your suit" and a potential reask for stiff/void. If you're really unlucky he'll have KQJ1098xxx, void, xx, xx and you'll have a diamond loser in 6♥/N but no trouble in 6♠.

Funnily enough, we had a hand which could be better in 6♠ come up today in a match I was playing in.

AQJ1098xx, void, xx, Qxx

[PhilKing]

Clear 7♥ bid. There are a lot of ways this can be cold. It's even good opposite KQJxxxxx xx x xx, and needs a trump to beat it when pard is 8113. And there are many other scenarios, few of which we can investigate, that make it a complete spread.

Shame on all the 6♥ bidders!

Lord Molyb, on 2013-February-17, 15:42, said:

partner probably has ♠KQxxxxxx ♥ x ♦ xx ♣ xx *shrugs*
I'll be content with 6 hearts.

I used to play 5♦ asked for a heart control. That works a treat here - when partner bids 5♥ or 6♠, you can bid the obvious 7♦, settling for 7♥ when partner signs off.

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-17, 16:52, said:

Funnily enough, we had a hand which could be better in 6♠ come up today in a match I was playing in.

AQJ1098xx, void, xx, Qxx

Anyone for diamonds?

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-17, 16:57, said:

Anyone for diamonds?

Maybe, but knowing diamonds is the right spot is tricky. If you have the system sophistication to be sure, well done and enjoy your top.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-17, 17:43, said:

Maybe, but knowing diamonds is the right spot is tricky. If you have the system sophistication to be sure, well done and enjoy your top.

Tops at IMPs are overrated.

[rmnka447]

There's no way to know exactly what partner has except maybe 8 or 9 pretty decent ♠.

If you bid 7 and it makes vs. the opponents being in 6, you'll gain 13 IMPs. If you bid 7 and it goes down vs. the opponents being in 6, you're losing 17 IMPs. The break even point is about a 56% chance that 7 makes. So you want to be pretty sure 7 makes if you bid it.

For 7 to make, you need a way to get rid of your ♣ loser AND bring in your ♦ suit without a loser. That seems like a pretty tall order to me.

I bid 6 ♥ feeling that is much more likely to make than 7 ♥.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-17, 17:54, said:

Tops at IMPs are overrated.

OK, enjoy your 12 IMPs.

[PhilKing]

On reflection, I think 5♥ then 7♦ over a sign-off should show this. If partner does something other than bid 5♠, that should help as well.

[ArtK78]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-17, 19:18, said:

On reflection, I think 5♥ then 7♦ over a sign-off should show this. If partner does something other than bid 5♠, that should help as well.

Should show what? A hand where you have a chance to make 13 tricks if partner's 4♠ opening can produce a 13th trick opposite a red two-suiter?

[Fluffy]

A hand that wants to play grand on his red doubleton.

[PhilKing]

ArtK78, on 2013-February-17, 22:07, said:

Should show what? A hand where you have a chance to make 13 tricks if partner's 4♠ opening can produce a 13th trick opposite a red two-suiter?

More than a chance.

Dummy's clubs get discarded on his red shortage, and you ruff the club. If partner is 8122 or 8212, only a 5-1 or 6-1 break beats you. Two out of three 7321s are OK and even 7123 has play on shape alone, and partner is allowed to have a high card.

[Free]

I'd just blast 7♥. Partner will probably have at least ♠A so all he needs is ♦T, ♥9 or a ruff to cash it. ♣K will also do just fine. The chance that partner will hold one of these cards is highly likely imo. Even with ♦xx there's a chance that we can ruff the 3rd one.

[ArtK78]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-17, 19:18, said:

On reflection, I think 5♥ then 7♦ over a sign-off should show this. If partner does something other than bid 5♠, that should help as well.

The problem with this approach is that it removes the ability to make an asking bid in one off suit and then sign off in 6 or 7 of another off suit.

For example, suppose responder held:

---
Ax
AKQJxxxxx
AK

Wouldn't you like to ask about second round heart control before signing off in 6♦ or 7♦? This is probably a more likely occurance than asking partner to choose between two suits at the 7 level after he opens 4 of a suit.

After this thread was posted, I discussed the situation with my regular partner. We agreed that a simple new suit bid by responder is an asking bid, and that any subsequent bid at the 6 or 7 level is to play.

[PhilKing]

ArtK78, on 2013-February-18, 15:45, said:

Wouldn't you like to ask about second round heart control before signing off in 6♦ or 7♦? This is probably a more likely occurance than asking partner to choose between two suits at the 7 level after he opens 4 of a suit.

Yes, sure, but given that I no longer play asking bids, unlikely or not, logic dictates that 5♥ followed by 7♦ should show, of all things, hearts and diamonds. If I played asking bids here, I would still bid 5♥, and then bid 7♦ to play if partner shows a heart control and 7♥ otherwise, which is a huge favourite opposite 2+ hearts. So on the actual hand, it is trivial to get to the right grand using cues or asks.

I no longer have a clear solution to your ♥Ax hand, but then again, no one solved the first hand correctly even when they had the tools to do so. I would try 5♦ cue and hopefully get a 5♥ cue in response. I need partner to realise that my first bid is a cue OR natural and forcing to avoid strain issues.

[Fluffy]

For what its worth, most people played 6♥ + 1 on this deal, parner is 7114 with ♠A, against 7♥ a trump lead is more indicated so its hard to know if it would make or not.