BBO Discussion Forums: Cue-bidding with Last Train - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Cue-bidding with Last Train

#1 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2013-February-12, 02:00

We have agreed spades. Partner has just bid 4, showing a diamond control and denying a club control. We play Last Train, and we play cue-bids at the five-level.

4 would be Last Train, showing a club control.

If I bid 5 instead of 4, what does that show?

If I bid 4, partner bids 4, and now I bid 5, what does that show?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#2 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2013-February-12, 04:15

This is what I play:

If you bid 4H and then 5C over 4S you have shown a heart control. If you bid 5C directly you deny a heart control.

Seems natural.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
3

#3 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2013-February-12, 04:22

I don't know whether this is universal, but for me "last train" is only "last train" if I abide by partner's decision. If I overrule him, it was just a "normal" cuebid.

View Postgnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

We have agreed spades. Partner has just bid 4, showing a diamond control and denying a club control. We play Last Train, and we play cue-bids at the five-level.

4 would be Last Train, showing a club control.


For the record: any bid -other than 4- shows a club control. So last train shows a club control and:
- either a hand that isn't sure there are 12 tricks*
- or a hand that is sure of 12 tricks and has a heart control

View Postgnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

If I bid 5 instead of 4, what does that show?


1st round club control, no heart control, 12 tricks

View Postgnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

If I bid 4, partner bids 4, and now I bid 5, what does that show?


1st round club control, 1st/2nd round heart control, 12 tricks

Rik

* For me slam bidding consists of two parts 1) establish that we have 12 tricks, 2) establish that they don't have 2 before that (controls). So when I write "12 tricks" I mean "the potential to take 12 tricks, not looking at the control situation (which might mean that they take 2 first)".
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#4 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2013-February-12, 04:23

Seems like Han and I agree. That should be the end of the discussion. ;)

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#5 User is offline   andy_h 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,962
  • Joined: 2007-September-14
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:The Universe, Traveling, Squash, and Scandinavia.

Posted 2013-February-12, 05:59

Something similar:
http://www.bridgebas...49237-double-q/
- Andy -

We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
0

#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

  • 2011 Poster of The Year winner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,002
  • Joined: 2010-July-08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-February-12, 12:48

View Posthan, on 2013-February-12, 04:15, said:

This is what I play:

If you bid 4H and then 5C over 4S you have shown a heart control. If you bid 5C directly you deny a heart control.

Seems natural.


Yeah this
0

#7 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2013-February-13, 07:44

I play it this way:

4 does not show nor deny a heart control.

Without a heart control, partner must bid 4 . If I bid on, I obviously have a heart control.

With a heart control, partner will bid on- usually with RKCB, very seldom with further control bids.

So, if I bid 5 club directly, I show both controls in hearts and clubs and that I am not interessting in asking or answering RCKB.

So on balance, I win over the "usual" style if I just play 4 instead of 5 without a heart control.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#8 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2013-February-13, 08:33

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#9 User is offline   benlessard 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,452
  • Joined: 2006-January-07
  • Location:Montreal Canada
  • Interests:All games. i really mean all of them.

Posted 2013-February-13, 19:46

How about

4NT = keycard (I have H+C controls)

4H-4S-4nt = Im lacking a H control so reply keycard if you have a H control or bid 5S if not (denying H control) or you can do the otherway around if you prefer.

There is 2 upside you can ask for keycards even if you dont have a H control (fairly frequent) rather than bidding 5C and praying. Plus 4H followed by 5C become a void somewhere not just a lack of H control.


The downside is that with 2+Q and a H control opener has to bid 5NT not 5S (it can be dangerous)
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
0

#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,351
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-February-14, 06:05

View Posthan, on 2013-February-13, 08:33, said:

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?

I would assume he plays some kind of Serious/Frivolous beforehand and is assuming that we are in a serious auction at this stage.
(-: Zel :-)

half-wit -- Chas_P the racist
0

#11 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2013-February-14, 11:06

View Posthan, on 2013-February-13, 08:33, said:

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?



Like you and anybody else, I usually have found it out before I cuebid at the 4. level...
Of course if there are tricky auctions - maybe even with opponents bidding- or a quite late agreement of the trump suit, this might be difficult, but Andy did not mentioned such a problem.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#12 User is offline   jdeegan 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,427
  • Joined: 2005-August-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Economics
    Finance
    Bridge bidding theory
    Cooking
    Downhill skiing

Posted 2013-February-15, 09:12

:P Thank all of you for an excellent thread. I am an old-time player essentially out of the game for many years but now trying to learn how to use "last train". Fortunately, much of it seems intuitive. One question: on the auction 4, 4, 4, 5 I would intuitively think the 5 bid showed first round control + of course some kind of control. I guess if the opening lead is running up to my hand, a control could be as little as Kx.
0

#13 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-February-15, 12:00

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#14 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2013-February-15, 17:01

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-15, 12:00, said:

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .

When I was a starting bridge player in University, I played a few times with a nice German math student who wasn't very experienced either. He suggested that we would play Jacoby 2NT. That was fine with me and I asked how we would follow up after that. He shrugged his shoulders and said: "Cuebidding, I guess...". (This meant first round controls first.) Then I asked what 3NT would mean in such a sequence. At first we couldn't come up with a meaning, but then I suggested: "How about if it shows a control in the trump suit?". That was a great idea and he followed up with: "But then we don't need Blackwood and 4NT shows a control in the trump suit too." We agreed immediately that this would not come up anyway.

However, on the 4th board of the evening, the auction went something like:
1-2NT
3-3 (cue-waiting)
3-3NT (cue-trump cue)
4-4 (cue - cue)
4-4NT (cue - trump cue)
7

We bid a grand on 25 HCP and a void in each hand. Somehow my partner made it (he shouldn't have). The rest of the score sheet only showed 4+2 and 4+1.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#15 User is offline   jogs 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Joined: 2011-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:student of the game

Posted 2013-February-15, 18:50

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-15, 12:00, said:

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .


There's a lot of luck in this game. Too many people think
they can control everything. My thoughts is: if partner is
interested in slam and I'm interested in slam just bid it.
Maybe it makes and maybe it doesn't. When it doesn't, if
we haven't given too much info, maybe opponents will
misdefend.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users