[Poky]

IMP. They vul.

♠AQJx
♥Jxx
♦Qxx
♣K8x

1♣ - pa - 1♥ - 2♣
pa - pa - Dbl - pa
???

[Gerben47]

2♠. Respond to the question asked. If I predict a unanimous panel I will be laughed at so I won't do that but I think it will be close to that.

[whereagles]

2S. I feel like passing though.

[inquiry]

Can I convince anyone that 2♦ is the correct call? Especially playing Walsh?

1) You opened 1♣ and didn't leave the takeout double of 2♣ in. What kind of hand can you have? Certainly not 5♣ as you would pass the double. And if you open 4-4 in the minors with 1♦? Then the 2♦ bid rates to be a hand that is 3-3-3-4 or 4-3-3-3. Anyway, if you haven't considered 2♦ maybe you should, your partner can easily be 3♠-4♥-5♦-1♣, and 2♦'s does not end the auction.

Ok, since I probably failed to convince anyone, what would I actually bid? I generally like raising ♥ here, but partner will be short in clubs, and ruffing clubs with his "long" hearts will not gain tricks. I'd rather be in 2♠ in a 4-3 fit facing a 4♠-5♥-3♦-1♣ hand than in an 5-3 ♥ fit... so, I will join those bidding 2♠, but I sure admire anyone brave enough to make what is thoughtful bid of 2♦

[flytoox]

I think I would dbl 2C showing 3card hearts. Now I will pass. Pd has some invitational hand and u r min. We dont have a game. 2c-1 shld be a good result. If it makes, no big deal here.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Dec 16 2004, 02:59 PM, said:

Anyway, if you haven't considered 2♦ maybe you should, your partner can easily be 3♠-4♥-5♦-1♣, and 2♦'s does not end the auction.

This is does make some sense, but it seems like a bit of a mastermind Sure, pard can have the 3451 hand, but he can also have a 4432 and be suspicious of opener having xx45/xx35 with bad clubs. In that case a "correction" into 2S could spell doom

Ok, perhaps he should just trust you would pass with 5 clubs, but is it really necessary to flirt with disaster? After all, if pard has the dreaded 3451, 2♠ is still a playable spot. (Could even be a top at matchpoints.)

[Poky]

inquiry, on Dec 16 2004, 02:59 PM, said:

1) You opened 1♣ and didn't leave the takeout double of 2♣ in. What kind of hand can you have? Certainly not 5♣ as you would pass the double. And if you open 4-4 in the minors with 1♦? Then the 2♦ bid rates to be a hand that is 3-3-3-4 or 4-3-3-3. Anyway, if you haven't considered 2♦ maybe you should, your partner can easily be 3♠-4♥-5♦-1♣, and 2♦'s does not end the auction.

Ok, since I probably failed to convince anyone, what would I actually bid? I generally like raising ♥ here, but partner will be short in clubs, and ruffing clubs with his "long" hearts will not gain tricks. I'd rather be in 2♠ in a 4-3 fit facing a 4♠-5♥-3♦-1♣ hand than in an 5-3 ♥ fit... so, I will join those bidding 2♠, but I sure admire anyone brave enough to make what is thoughtful bid of 2♦

Very good, Ben!

Since 2♦ cannot be natural it must be offering both major contracts, presumibly a 4♠3♥ pattern; responder to choose.

With 3334 I think it is much better to pass (or bid a simple 2♥, depending of honor location).

Playing this way partner has a full control of hand and can very accurately judge the best contract.

I think 2♦ is a clear-cut bid with our hand!

[EricK]

I see we are not playing support doubles. That's a shame, as they are very useful when playing strong NT/5 cd major systems. Especially if playing Walsh repsonses.

We are also not playing a weak NT. That is also a shame, since we have been dealt one of them

I would probably bid 2♠ as partner probably has four of them, and it will play OK if he only has three. Really though any of 2♦/2♥/2♠ is OK.

2♦ is an excellent bid if your aim is to win the post mortem, but I don't think it has all the advantages claimed in normal play with an average partner.

Eric

[inquiry]

EricK, on Dec 16 2004, 01:55 PM, said:

2♦ is an excellent bid if your aim is to win the post mortem, but I don't think it has all the advantages claimed in normal play with an average partner.

Which is why my at the table choice was 2♠... partner will not pick up on the significance of 2♦ i am afraid.

As for not playing support double... cool... .I never like them anyway. I raise

1c-1H to 2H on three card support, and see no reason to change 1c-(p)-1H-(1S) my raise here to 2H with three or four card support. I like the law, but here, support with support seems right. I like the double here for takeout as it handles ackward hands... hands with support are not ackward... just raise.

[Fluffy]

mmmm, what happens to support double? is it on when they bid YOUR suit?, I dunno really, but if I forgot to bid it before now I have to bid 2♥.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Dec 17 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

mmmm, what happens to support double? is it on when they bid YOUR suit?, I dunno really, but if I forgot to bid it before now I have to bid 2♥.

I agree, you shouldn't pass but Dbl in the first place: you have both a 3 card ♥ (support) and 4 card ♠ (negative). Even if they bid "your" suit it should be on, since you can pass with a penalty hand...

So this is a non-problem if you start right.

[inquiry]

Free, on Dec 17 2004, 09:15 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 17 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

mmmm, what happens to support double? is it on when they bid YOUR suit?, I dunno really, but if I forgot to bid it before now I have to bid 2♥.

I agree, you shouldn't pass but Dbl in the first place: you have both a 3 card ♥ (support) and 4 card ♠ (negative). Even if they bid "your" suit it should be on, since you can pass with a penalty hand...

So this is a non-problem if you start right.

Well.. let me help you out here... if you make a support double, spades are lost if partner is 4-4 in the majors and weakish. If you make a support double, your partner may very well bow out with four hearts and five or six diamonds if weak. If you make a support double, your partner may think, "hey" clubs was his suit, so this isn't a support double situation.

And you are absolutely no worse off here if you simply now bid 2♥ than if you make a support double. In fact, you are better off, as your partner will know about your pitiful heart support AND YOUR LACK of values given your initial choice to pass. And instead of bidding 2♥ you could make the right bid of 2♦ or the better bid (than 2♥) of 2♠, all things not achievable with the support double. People pick on flannery all the time. If I had to name a convention I could do without it would be the support double.

[Free]

The way I play Dbl in this situation is rather 2-way: either support or negative (or both). This hasn't given me any problems so far... So the ♠ suit is NOT gone, and a possible 5-3 ♥ fit is also found quite easily.

[inquiry]

Free, on Dec 17 2004, 11:15 AM, said:

The way I play Dbl in this situation is rather 2-way: either support or negative (or both). This hasn't given me any problems so far... So the ♠ suit is NOT gone, and a possible 5-3 ♥ fit is also found quite easily.

Yuck, you GOT TO BE kidding.

Double is either three card support, or four spades, or both? How in the world can this work out.. you partner is blinded... If you have 2-3-4-4 (3 hearts in this case)... and your partner is 4-4-3-2... if he bids 2♠ (he has to bid over your double even when very weak), you are in world of hurt.... sure, you know you need to go to 3♥, but.... there you are.... 2♥ would be better. And if he bids 2♥? Then if you have 4-1-4-4, you are in your 4-1 fit (can we add that to the bad fit hands... at least as honoroable mention considering you missed your 4-4 spade fit).

These two way things are horrible.... I hate bids where partner is to look at his hand and then figure out what your two way bid means.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Dec 17 2004, 02:13 PM, said:

Free, on Dec 17 2004, 09:15 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 17 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

mmmm, what happens to support double? is it on when they bid YOUR suit?, I dunno really, but if I forgot to bid it before now I have to bid 2♥.

I agree, you shouldn't pass but Dbl in the first place: you have both a 3 card ♥ (support) and 4 card ♠ (negative). Even if they bid "your" suit it should be on, since you can pass with a penalty hand...

So this is a non-problem if you start right.

Well.. let me help you out here... if you make a support double, spades are lost if partner is 4-4 in the majors and weakish. If you make a support double, your partner may very well bow out with four hearts and five or six diamonds if weak. If you make a support double, your partner may think, "hey" clubs was his suit, so this isn't a support double situation.

And you are absolutely no worse off here if you simply now bid 2♥ than if you make a support double. In fact, you are better off, as your partner will know about your pitiful heart support AND YOUR LACK of values given your initial choice to pass. And instead of bidding 2♥ you could make the right bid of 2♦ or the better bid (than 2♥) of 2♠, all things not achievable with the support double. People pick on flannery all the time. If I had to name a convention I could do without it would be the support double.

Ben, I think this is a spt dbl situation. IF u play spt dbl, then any dbl or opp's suit under 2 of the suit bid by pd is spt dbl.

The sequence given in the question is the only one which you may play dbl for takeout.

[Fluffy]

after a pass where support double was avible, supporting doens´t show 3 cards and minimum, but 2 cards.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Dec 17 2004, 12:04 PM, said:

Ben, I think this is a spt dbl situation. IF u play spt dbl, then any dbl or opp's suit under 2 of the suit bid by pd is spt dbl.

The sequence given in the question is the only one which you may play dbl for takeout.

I agree with justin, how can double of 2♣ after you open 1♣ and you are sitting behind the 2♣ bidder be suggesting three card major support.

I would guess it could have two meanings. Meaning number one.. I am 4-1-4-4 and would like you to choose between 2♣ doubled and ♦ and ♠ contract (except I open that 1♦, so imagine this was 1D-P-1H-2D)... or they have made a huge mistake bidding my suit, let's get-em.

I think I prefer the have made a huge mistake option, and I prefer partner's reopening double (after I opened teh suit) to be optional, not penalty.

[bearmum]

Poky, on Dec 17 2004, 02:32 AM, said:

IMP. They vul.

♠AQJx
♥Jxx
♦Qxx
♣K8x

1♣ - pa - 1♥ - 2♣
pa - pa - Dbl - pa
???

Well I guess I bid 2♠ hoping for the 4/4 fit rather than the 4/3 ♥

[Fluffy]

I agree support double shouldn´t probably be on when they bid your suit in a natural meaning, what about this other 2 biddings:

a.
1♣-pass-1♠-1NT
X??

1NT= red suits

b.
1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣
X??

2♣ = cuebid: limit or more with ♦ support.