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& more kickback

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2013-January-30, 08:08

We had this auction last night.

1:2
2N:3
3N:?

I am the club bidder holding 7 clubs and I have slam interest, do you play 4 here as kickback?
KB seems to make sense (rule5) as I could have supported diamonds on my second turn.

Our kickback rules,

1. If no trump suit is agreed explicitly, then it implicitly agrees partner’s last natural suit bid. For example, if 4NT would have been keycard for hearts, then 4S is kickback even if partner's hearts have not yet been supported.

2. Kickback is never on in a contested auction where opponent’s bid above the 2 level.
4N is KC in contested auctions, major and minor.

3. Kickback is always on if trumps have been agreed explicitly (even if the kickback suit is a possible alternative trump suit)

4. 4D is always Kickback if partner’s last natural bid is clubs, except that responder can bid a natural non-jump 4D at his first turn after a 1C opening, e.g. 1C-(3H/S)-4D. (rule2)

5. 4H/4S is Kickback unless there is no other way to bid game in that suit, i.e. 3H/S would not be forcing or the bidding is at the four level already.
I think this can be extended to 4D/C too.

6. The general presumption is that the Kickback interpretation takes priority
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#2 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2013-January-30, 09:54

Playing normal methods, yes, certainly kickback by my rules. 3 is the obvious bid with diamond support, so 4 cannot be anything else other than ace asking in clubs.

But I do remember from an earlier thread that many think it is natural.
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#3 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2013-January-30, 10:26

Given your set of rules, especially #6, it likely is, for you.

Of course I think that the whole set of rules implies you grossly overrate ace-asking. (No partner of mine is ever getting me to agree to at least three of your six rules.)
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#4 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-January-31, 06:58

Let's change the question slightly:

Suppose you are not playing kickback. What would 4 mean? Would it be:

1) Natural
2) A cue for a club slam

Is there anybody over here who would think it is natural? If 2 was GF you would have shown the diamond support on the previous round. Therefore, it can not be natural. So when you are not playing kickback, 4 is a cue for a club slam. And that means that if you do play kickback then 4 will be kickback.

View PostSiegmund, on 2013-January-30, 10:26, said:

Of course I think that the whole set of rules implies you grossly overrate ace-asking. (No partner of mine is ever getting me to agree to at least three of your six rules.)


Yes, you may be right that kickbackers ask for aces too much and cue too little. OTOH it may also be true that keycarders cue too much and are stuck for room when they need to ask for aces. It's a case of corners and roundabouts.

Rik
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2013-January-31, 12:02

Give me the corners every time. Roundabouts aren't too bad, it's the traffic lights I hate.

No, kickbackers have no trouble cueing when majors are trumps, a cue starts with/or a bid above non-serious 3NT when spades are trumps, or a non-serious 3 when hearts are trumps. It's the minor contracts we are reluctant to cue. We (my partnerships, I don't mean all kickbackers) play 3NT as natural, so there is not the benefit of the non-serious or its bypass. However, we do forgo kickback if we have a hand that (very rarely) particularly wants to cue a 4M rather than ace ask, then 4NT after that is plain RKCB.

Rules 6 and 3 are all you need, on the whole.
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#6 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2013-January-31, 12:51

View PostTrinidad, on 2013-January-31, 06:58, said:

Yes, you may be right that kickbackers ask for aces too much and cue too little.

No, you missed the point. It is perfectly possible to play kickback with entirely different rules as to when it applies.
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#7 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-February-01, 08:40

View Postmgoetze, on 2013-January-31, 12:51, said:

View PostTrinidad, on 2013-January-31, 06:58, said:

Yes, you may be right that kickbackers ask for aces too much and cue too little.


No, you missed the point. It is perfectly possible to play kickback with entirely different rules as to when it applies.

I think that I am missing the point now.

To clarify: I like playing kickback and I have never had any problem identifying whether a bid is kickback or natural. So you don't need to convince me that it is perfectly possible to play kickback with some set of rules. The set of rules that my favorite partner (my wife) and I use seem to work fine. (Rule 1: If you want to stay married, don't mess up the difference between cues and kickback. ;))

The point that I am giving Siegmund is that among kickbackers there may well be a larger fraction of folks who overestimate the value of ace asking bids (compared to the keycarders). There are three reasons for that:
1) The kickbackers actually have put additional time and effort in their ace asking convention, so they are likely to consider it important.
2) The kickbackers have to make a decision whether to cue or ask for aces earlier in the auction. This may lead to more ace asking than should be done.
3) The keycarders meet many more situations where they simply can't afford to ask for aces. When you are cueing for a club slam and have reached 4, it is very nice to know that you have second round control in all of the side suits and first round control in some. But you will not be able to figure out whether partner has controls in the trump suit, since you may not be able to afford the response. This will lead to less ace asking by the keycarders when they really should (but couldn't).

This doesn't mean in any way that I will admit that kickback is inferior to keycard. Quite the opposite!

Rik
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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
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#8 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2013-February-01, 08:49

Those are fair points, though I suspect a large portion of the non-kickbackers wish they had the advantages of kickback but don't know how to get them, and all too many of them sometimes ask for aces even when they can't afford it. ;)
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#9 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2013-February-01, 10:34

View PostTrinidad, on 2013-February-01, 08:40, said:

3) The keycarders meet many more situations where they simply can't afford to ask for aces. When you are cueing for a club slam and have reached 4, it is very nice to know that you have second round control in all of the side suits and first round control in some. But you will not be able to figure out whether partner has controls in the trump suit, since you may not be able to afford the response. This will lead to less ace asking by the keycarders when they really should (but couldn't).


View PostfromageGB, on 2013-January-31, 12:02, said:

However, we do forgo kickback if we have a hand that (very rarely) particularly wants to cue a 4M rather than ace ask, then 4NT after that is plain RKCB.


So you don't have to kickback if you have a good reason to cue.

In your example, if you have reached 4 you have already made that decision to not kickback. So 4NT is for me ace asking. But you would not be getting here if you felt likely to not be able to manage the response. You are no worse off that those who do not play kickback. Indeed you are better off, because you have had a choice of approaches - full details of aces, trump honours and side kings that is inaccessible to 4NTers, or cue bidding and asking like the 4NTers.
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