[inquiry]

Misho is teaching me transfer preempts from 2NT to 3D. The bid shows either the next suit (weak), of the bid suit and one of the other suits (not the transfer suit) and STRONG, 4 losers or less. When you open 2NT, you show hearts as one of the bid suit..

2NT-P-3C-

• Pass = preempt in clubs
  
• 3D = hearts and diamonds
  
• 3S = spades and hearts
  
• 3H = spades and hearts, much better hearts
  
• 3NT = hearts and diamonds, better diamonds, GF value
  
• 4D = Big Heart and diamond hand
  
• 4H = big spade/heart hand, better hearts
  
• 4S = big spade/heart hand, probably 2 losers

3C - P - 3D

• PAss = ok diamonds weak
  
• 3H = clubs and hearts
  
• 3S = clubs and spades
  
• 3NT = clubs and

3D - P - 3H

• PAss = got it weak with hearts
  
• 3S = diamonds and spades
  
• 3NT = diamonds and clubs
  
• 4 level bids, stronger two suiters

Comments.

[Free]

He got the strong idea from me Works quite fine, you're able to show big 55+ hands without much troubles, and the disadvantages of preempting in transfer are very small!

[the hog]

I must admit that I really dislike this. It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start. Also against good opponents you are giving them 3 bites at the cherry
eg (3C) Now a good pair will have meanings for X 3D and pass followed by a X of the opp's 3D when it comes back. The only real advantage could be if responder is weak with C and passes, but then you are possibly losing out on YOUR strong option.

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Dec 16 2004, 07:48 PM, said:

I must admit that I really dislike this. It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start. Also against good opponents you are giving them 3 bites at the cherry
eg (3C) Now a good pair will have meanings for X 3D and pass followed by a X of the opp's 3D when it comes back. The only real advantage could be if responder is weak with C and passes, but then you are possibly losing out on YOUR strong option.

Well, I have never played transfer preempts, primarily due to the logic you quote. This new spin (to me, at least) seems like it might be worth looking into. To start off, only three bids are transfer preempts, not all bids (2N, 3C, & 3D). Second, since the hand bidding this can be quite strong, bidding by the opponents can be fraught with more danger (that is, weak hands are not the only option).

Misho has a lot of good ideas, and few clunkers (I have a lot of clunkers and few good ones). I have to try things out to see how I like them (like taking a car for test drive). I have been looking at this bid from a two hand standpoint, and it looks pretty good, especially with the big hands. This is further enhanced when you don;t open one of these bids but then show a "big" two suits by the more natural and normal auction.

Ben

[whereagles]

Hum...

+ Allows to put in big hands.
- But do you really want to start bidding big hands at the 3+ level?

+ Puts strong hand to declare
- But when you open a preempt, you're already putting your money it's the OPPS, not you, who has the hand.

+ The big hands makes it more risky for opps to enter the bidding.
- But it also leaves them with more opportunities and bids to enter the fray.
- Also, the weak variant is probably less than 5%.

- > +

[Free]

whereagles, on Dec 17 2004, 10:47 AM, said:

Hum...

+ Allows to put in big hands.
- But do you really want to start bidding big hands at the 3+ level?
~snip~

Tell me with what (semi-)natural system you can show a GF hand with at least 5-5 (not 5-4 or 6-4) in 2 known suits below the 3-level! I challenge you

We all know the disadvantages of preempting in transfer, but look at preempting in general:
- after a 3X preempt, most people end up in a pretty right contract
- giving away 2 extra bids gives them obviously more methods to find that right contract
- if you are allowed to play your 3X contract, then you might as well let it play by a completely unknown hand (so transfer)

Imo, playing transfer preempts only makes sense if you include strong options in them. Otherwise you throw away an opening bid (so you can transfer) and you don't get anything back. Strong 55+ hands have been a big problem (we've seen that 100s of times on this forum btw) so if you include these, you'll be better off when one comes around.

I've been playing something similar for a few years with my father, also including 55+ GF hands, and I must say they helped us a lot from time to time (we are able to show our exact shape ofcourse, which helps for slam ).
Once my partner also had a 5-5, but not especially strong, and opps intervene. They got hung for a number ofcourse, since my partner 'knew' I had 55+ in the other suits and we were in a misfit auction

[inquiry]

Well, here are some example hands from BBO with two suiters that would be opened 2NT to 3♦. These hands will probalby not convince anyone to consider this method, but at least they will give you an idea of what Misho has in mind. I left out the preemptive hands. Remember the rules with the strong hands.

1) you will have the suit you bid (2NT shows ♥).
2) you will not have the transfer suit
3) Extra values shown with rebids above 3NT
4) Minimum big two suiter is 5-5 with four losers or less

Let me know what you think and where the glaring errors are.

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

Scoring: IMP

West East
2N - 3C
3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite
6S - Pass

6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.

---

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Dec 16 2004, 07:48 PM, said:

It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start.

Actually, you can bounce the auction if you like.

For instance, if your parnter bids 2NT and you ahve ♣ and ♥, you can bounce clubs.... If he bids 3♦ and you ahve diamonds and spades you can bounce the auction.. in fact, anytime you fit for the suit your partner bid (or showed) you can bounce..I will have to think about what a bounce shows...besides the sure fit.

Ben

[DrTodd13]

Why limit yourself to 2 possible meanings for a bid? Take a look at Purple Twos for a system of 2-level and 3-level bids where most of the
two level bids show 5+ hand types, typically:
- strong single suiter in one suit
- weak single suiter in a different suit
- strong two suiter with one anchor suit
- weak two suiter with one ancher suit
- big balanced NT range

Ok. It is a bit crazy but super-fun to play. It also uses 1-under transfer
preempts. It does give away an extra bid to opps but in many cases partner
gets to declarer and right-side the contract.

Todd

[DJNeill]

Hi all,
I think, if in Purple Twos, one opens 3S, it doesn't right-side an eventual 4S contract.

Thanks,
Dan

[DrTodd13]

No system can right-side every contract. Likewise, no system can prevent your partner from messing it up.

[inquiry]

Well speaking of that, I have a free 3♥ bid playing misho's way (3♦ is the weak preempt in hearts).

So the question becomes what would 3♥ opening bid mean. Minor preempt so that 4♣ and 4♦ can be naymayts? Solid minor to stear gambling 3NT into partener's hand? Misho told me what he thought it should be, but at the time I was dealing with what the other bids meant, so I pretty much let it slip in one eye and out the other (it is somewhere in my chat log however).... but I got the feeling this bid was still up for grabs. If anyone has any ideas on what would make sense if you played 2NT/3C/3D as I described, I would love to hear from you.

Ben

[mycroft]

Nobody's commented on the hands, so I guess I can walk in where angels...

Quote

Scoring: IMP


2N - 3C
4D - 4H  <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak)
Pass  <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher.

 

---

2N-p-3C-5C
?

West knows what 2NT is - it's 5-5 strong, H+another. There just aren't enough clubs for it to be the weak hand. So 5C now makes opener wonder what responder's relay is and responder knows opener is strong with hearts, but what's the other suit? And hey, 5C might actually make (swap the SK for either red-suit K and -1)

Quote

Scoring: IMP


2N - 3C
4D - 4H  <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak)
Pass  <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher.

 

---

Yep, here I'm going to take my lumps in spades. But...

Quote

Scoring: IMP


2N - 3C
4D - 4H  <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak)
Pass  <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher.

 

---

Similarly, 3D-3H; 3NT (4S) 5S; (6H) and they lose one trick in each suit. I realize that 800 is still better than 2C+5, or even 3NT+3, but it isn't 2140 (or even 1390).

Quote

Scoring: IMP


2N - 3C
4D - 4H  <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak)
Pass  <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher.

 

---

At equal, we're not going to double 5C, one really wants the heart lead. But swap the A and a small heart, and 7C is a good save. Although the difference between 800 and 920 isn't anything to write home about...

I guess what these are showing is that it's often right to look for a save, especially at favourable, as soon as you know opener is strong. Which makes sense, really; if there's a slam in the offing, bids that quickly show 5-5 will find them (and others won't) but our fit will frequently take lotsmore tricks, too.

I like the idea, though; especially because the double had better mean something important, as pass is pass/correct, and redouble "partner I think you can make this even with the bad break, and they have nowhere to run to. If you happen to have the strong hand, we'd better ace-hunt, bexause this is just a question of 6 or 7 in your other suit..."

Michael.

[Free]

Mycroft, you have a point that opening these hands might give info to opps before we get our rebid or our partner gets into the auction. That's why we can use both forcing pass and Dbl to specify our suits.

Look at your first example: there you can easily Pass with D and Dbl with S.

2nd example: East has a clear Dbl: if partner has ♣ he can pass, if he doesn't have them, he can show his second suit, they always have a fit!

Btw, I would never open the first example Ben gives as a GF 2-suiter, because my ♠s are too weak. This however is a matter of style: we accept maximum 1 loser in each of the suits, but not 2 losers in 1 of the suits.

[inquiry]

Free, on Dec 19 2004, 09:41 AM, said:

Mycroft, you have a point that opening these hands might give info to opps before we get our rebid or our partner gets into the auction. That's why we can use both forcing pass and Dbl to specify our suits.

Look at your first example: there you can easily Pass with D and Dbl with S.

2nd example: East has a clear Dbl: if partner has ♣ he can pass, if he doesn't have them, he can show his second suit, they always have a fit!

Btw, I would never open the first example Ben gives as a GF 2-suiter, because my ♠s are too weak. This however is a matter of style: we accept maximum 1 loser in each of the suits, but not 2 losers in 1 of the suits.

Misho suggest the bid is two suiter, 4 losers or less.. is not true game force..... you can stop at three level.

[mila85]

I like the idea of transfer preempts but I don't like that the strong two suiter is without transfered suit.

xxxx
xx
Kxxxx
Kx
After normal 3d opening (with or without overcall) I simply bid 5d. I think that this is one of biggest advantages of preempts.
If your partner opens 3c (preempt in diamonds or two suiter with clubs) you can't bid 5d. Partner will very often have strong club-heard two suiter.
If 3c opening promisses diamonds I can effectively preempt by 5d. Opener can with strong hand bid his other suit - 6d shoud be ok...

The other thing I don't like is that with club preempt you open 2nt.
Axxx
Kxx
Axx
Qxx
After normal 3c opening (7cards, two top honours) I bid 100% 3nt.
After 2nt opening 3nt depends on position of heard ace.
Right-side 3nt is much more useful that right-side 3c.


What do you think about this scheme?
(The main idea is from Garozzo's Ambra)

2c:23+bal or GF without 5c major
2d:heards, weak two or strong
2h:same with spades
2s:club preempt or strong two suiter with clubs
2nt:21-22 BAL
3c:good diamond preempt or strong two suiter with diamonds
3d:bad diamond preempt
3h+:normal

2s-2nt is inv - bid 3nt with two top honours

After
2h-2s/
pass..weak two
2nt....strong two (3c,3d,3h show shortness-inv+)
3c,d,h..5-4 GF
3s.......very very good spades, GF
3NT.....25+BAL 5s332

After
2d-2h
2s......5+-4 GF
3s......5+-5+ GF
other as after 2h-2s

After 2c
2d....relay
2h....5+spades
2s.....5+heards
2nt,3c...6+minor, transfer
3d+......???

2c-2d:
2h.....5+m-4h or 4441 with black singleton or 5440.
2s......5+m-4s or 4441 with red singleton
2nt.....23-24 BAL
3m.....6+cards, without 4c M, GF
3M......??
3nt......25+BAL, without 5c M

[Free]

This is how I've played GF 2-suiters for a long time:

2NT = 55+ ♦-♣, weak or GF
3♣ = preempt ♦ or GF 55+ ♥ and another
3♦ = preempt ♥ or GF 55+ ♠ and a minor

We had some hands where we wanted to blast into high contracts, and if we did it when partner had a 55+ GF hand, it gave us several bad scores. So we started to think of other structures, but we haven't changed anything eventually...

[inquiry]

mila85, on Dec 23 2004, 03:06 PM, said:

I like the idea of transfer preempts but I don't like that the strong two suiter is without transfered suit.

xxxx
xx
Kxxxx
Kx
After normal 3d opening (with or without overcall) I simply bid 5d. I think that this is one of biggest advantages of preempts.
If your partner opens 3c (preempt in diamonds or two suiter with clubs) you can't bid 5d. Partner will very often have strong club-heard two suiter.

Well, your 5♦ bid with this hand is fine... but playing 3♣ misho's way gives you alternative ways to raise, you can bid any other suit with that suit and a raise in partner's presumed minor suit. Sort of like after a raptor 1NT overcall, where you jump in one of the two possible majors when you fit for the known minor.

[inquiry]

After trying misho's transfer preempts, we have decided we would like to keep 2NT as balanced big hand. We have modified the bidding so that 3C/3D/3H are the transfer preempts. Now 3S shows any solid suit, and 3NT shows a preempt to four of a minor (not solid suit).

When we open 3C, it is either weak with diamonds, or any strong two suiter short in diamonds

A 3D opening is either weak with hearts, or any strong two suiter with diamonds and a black suit.

A 3H opening bid is either spades or a strong heart/diamond two suiter.

We use opener rebids at the three and four level to separate as to how strong the bid is (how many losers). For instance,

3C-3D (forced)-

• 3H = major two suiter, 4 losers
  
• 3S = spades and clubs, 4 losers
  
• 3NT = hearts and clubs (non-touching), 4 losers
  
• 4C = clubs and hearts, 3 losers
  
• 4H = hearts and spades 3 losers
  
• 4S = spades and clubs, 2 losers
  
• etc

Here is a difficult hand that only one pair found the laydown 6♦ contract on, after opening a strong two clubs.

IMP-1       tankdriver  Dlr: East  
Board 15709 S 9872      Vul: E-W
            H 763       
SIBELCANAN  D QT76      baron_35    
S AQJ6      C J4        S T543      
H JT842                 H KQ9       
D 52        gezgin2000  D J3        
C 72        S K         C 9865      
            H A5        
            D AK984     
            C AKQT3     

The transfer "preempt auction would be...
3♦ 3♥
4♣ 5♦
6♦ Pass

Four clubs shows ♦ and ♣ and three losers, five diamonds shows at least one sure cover card and ♦ fit, 4NT over 4♣ would have shown ♣ shortness and be slam try if short club is worht two cover cards, 4♠ over 4♣ would have asked for opener to show best suit, and 4♥ over 4NT would have shown ♦ shortness and slam try if short diamond is two cover cards. So 5♦ shows marked preference for ♦ and one absolute sure cover card. 6♦ with the "solid" clubs facing two or three clubs and longer diamonds seems excellent shot. Counting on 5♣ and 5♦ a heart and a heart ruff, or maybe 5♦, 4♣ a ♥ and a ♣ and ♥ ruff. OR if necessary, a club hook of jack (or fall of jack).

As you can see, we have harneshed some of the off suit and 4NT bids to explore quality of cover cards. We can still ask for keycards, consider this auction from bidding session....

---

3♣ - 3♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♦ - 5♠
5NT- 7♣
Pass

3C = preempt in diamonds or strong two suiter short in diamonds
3D = signoff opposite diamond preempt
3S = black two suiter, three losers
4NT = slam if my short spade is worth two cover cards
5D = RKCB, grand slam try
5S = one key card
5NT = trump queen?
7C = more than enough clubs to make up for missing queen

These two hands, slam is reached (and grand slam in one case) despite the shortage not working out exactly as planned. In the first case, you take advantage of the shortage question not being asked. In the second, WEST counts tricks again based upon the quality of the offered suit. Yes he could run into a partner with five hearts and four clubs, so pitches do no good. This is still a work in progress... we are looking for ideas on how to improve the auctions.

Ben

[awm]

Question for Inquiry: since you started playing these transfer preempts, how many times have they come up in actual play (not in bidding practice or times you kibitzed other pairs)? Of these, how many were the "strong two suiter" variety?

From your description, it seems clear that you will frequently win when opener has the strong two suiter, but transfer preempts in general tend to lose on the weak hands because: (1) opponents have more opportunities to bid (2) responder can't always confidently raise the preempt. It seems to me that the weak hands will be MUCH more frequent than the strong ones, so you are accepting frequent losses on the preempt hands in order to have the occasional win on strong hands. Sure you can produce any number of two-suited monsters where the transfer preempt treatment is one of the few ways to get to slam, but it seems like I only hold such a hand once every few thousand boards, whereas "weak three" preempts happen (well in some suit) about once every 40-50 boards.

-- Adam