Help
Not sure what you rebid after 1C-1H when opener has 1453. If 2D then that's fairly loaded.
It seems like a lot of the difficulty is knowing whether to support spades when holding five hearts and three spades. You don't want to commit to one or the other necessarily. This rough draft gets a little high sometimes but I'm trying to get to the right strain.
1C-1H,
.....1N-bal, frequently with 3 spades, but not 3 spades and 5 hearts and not 3 spades with good 5-cd minor and weak doubleton
.....2C-same as 1C-1D
.....2D-same as 1C-1D (can't have 4 hearts)
.....2H-6H
.....2S-5m/5m
now
1C-1H, 1S-
1N-2+ clubs (S/C, 3-suited short a red, balanced)
.....2C-GF relay (alternately you could have this as GF relay or a hand that has interest in clubs and spades)
.....2D-minimum, reds or 3-suited short spades, denies 3 spades
.....2H-denies 3 spades, 5H/4C
.....2S-3S/5D
.....2N-3S/5H
.....3C-3S/5C
2C-S/D
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-5H/4C, denies 3 spades
.....2S-3S/5C
.....2N-3S/5H
.....3C-reds, denies 3 spades
.....3D-3S/4+D
2D-SS
.....2H-GF relay
.....2S-2 spades, 5H
.....2N-1 spade, 5H
Still looking at totally different ideas of separating the spade reversers from the other early. Unfortunately when the reverser is at 2H we can't stop in the Moysian.
Page 1 of 1
IMPrecision 1C-1H
#1
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Posted 2013-January-23, 11:29
#2
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Posted 2013-January-23, 19:33
Our approach is to rebid 1NT on three-suited patterns with singleton spade. Basically:
1NT = 1-2 spades no 6-card suit not 5♥ unless 2533 exactly
2m = 6+ in the bid suit, or the rare 04(45); at most 2 spades
2♥ = 6+♥ without a 4+ side suit
2♠ = 5/5 in the minors
Now 1♠ handles: (1) 3+♠ (2) 5+♥ and a side minor (3) GF values
Over 1♣-1♥-1♠-some rebid, the idea is that:
(1) Breaking relays to bid 2♠ shows 3+♠ (usually exactly three) and min
(2) Breaking relays to bid a minor is natural and implies also 5+♥
(3) Breaking relays to bid 2♥ shows 5+♥ and a minor; usually identity of the minor is known
Our current approach has the following potential problems when opener makes the 1♠ relay on less than GF:
(1) We are basically forced to game if responder has 5♠/4+♥. However, this is usually okay because we have a major suit fit and at least one unbalanced hand between us.
(2) We can't play below 2NT if responder has 4♠/5+♥; this is potentially more of a problem because we may not have a fit.
(3) We can't reach a heart contract easily if opener has 5♥ and responder has a 5(332) pattern.
(4) We wrong-side some notrump contracts when opener has 3♠ balanced and responder has 4♠ balanced.
(5) We play a fair number of 2♠ partials on 4-3 fits when there is no game. This is sometimes good (3-card hand needn't be balanced either).
One way to "solve" these some of these problems is to change the relay to 4+♠ or 5+♥ or GF; the issue here is that if we rebid 1NT/2m with one to three spades responder will not know whether to return to a weak five-card suit. Also the 4-3 fits sometimes play well (and definitely better than the 5-1 minor fits we might occasionally reach by rebidding 2m on 31(45) patterns).
Something I've long thought was a good idea is to rearrange the relay responses so that hands with only four spades are rebidding 1NT/2♣ all the time, to enable opener room to explore. The only significant downside to this sort of rearrangement is memory load (as best I can tell).
Your approach seems to flip clubs and diamonds (to no real significant advantage as best I can tell) and to remove some of the 3♠ hands from the relay (which has its ups and downs as described above). I'm not convinced it's a real improvement (although also not convinced it's worse).
1NT = 1-2 spades no 6-card suit not 5♥ unless 2533 exactly
2m = 6+ in the bid suit, or the rare 04(45); at most 2 spades
2♥ = 6+♥ without a 4+ side suit
2♠ = 5/5 in the minors
Now 1♠ handles: (1) 3+♠ (2) 5+♥ and a side minor (3) GF values
Over 1♣-1♥-1♠-some rebid, the idea is that:
(1) Breaking relays to bid 2♠ shows 3+♠ (usually exactly three) and min
(2) Breaking relays to bid a minor is natural and implies also 5+♥
(3) Breaking relays to bid 2♥ shows 5+♥ and a minor; usually identity of the minor is known
Our current approach has the following potential problems when opener makes the 1♠ relay on less than GF:
(1) We are basically forced to game if responder has 5♠/4+♥. However, this is usually okay because we have a major suit fit and at least one unbalanced hand between us.
(2) We can't play below 2NT if responder has 4♠/5+♥; this is potentially more of a problem because we may not have a fit.
(3) We can't reach a heart contract easily if opener has 5♥ and responder has a 5(332) pattern.
(4) We wrong-side some notrump contracts when opener has 3♠ balanced and responder has 4♠ balanced.
(5) We play a fair number of 2♠ partials on 4-3 fits when there is no game. This is sometimes good (3-card hand needn't be balanced either).
One way to "solve" these some of these problems is to change the relay to 4+♠ or 5+♥ or GF; the issue here is that if we rebid 1NT/2m with one to three spades responder will not know whether to return to a weak five-card suit. Also the 4-3 fits sometimes play well (and definitely better than the 5-1 minor fits we might occasionally reach by rebidding 2m on 31(45) patterns).
Something I've long thought was a good idea is to rearrange the relay responses so that hands with only four spades are rebidding 1NT/2♣ all the time, to enable opener room to explore. The only significant downside to this sort of rearrangement is memory load (as best I can tell).
Your approach seems to flip clubs and diamonds (to no real significant advantage as best I can tell) and to remove some of the 3♠ hands from the relay (which has its ups and downs as described above). I'm not convinced it's a real improvement (although also not convinced it's worse).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#3
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Posted 2013-January-23, 21:58
Thanks for framing the problem better. I'm new to looking at it and haven't quite understood your mechanism for handling 1C-1H.
I looked at a number of deals and it seemed to work very well.
I looked at a number of deals and it seemed to work very well.
#4
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Posted 2013-January-24, 12:20
1C-1H continuations. I omitted deals in which opener has a 6-cd suit.
I think probably the biggest two plusses for this are avoiding Moysian's for bal opposite bal and being able to stop in 2S when responder is minimum. After 1N-2H opener can super-accept or not with three spades.
The pitfalls seem to occur most often when opener has the reds. No surprise there. He does well to rebid 1N with 5422 red hands. The most awkward hands for opener seem to be 1444 and 1543.
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43..1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2H-3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V..1N-etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V..1N-2H, 2S etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S (shows 5/4 non-invite)
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-2N, 2D-P or 3N (potentially bad)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N-2H, 2S (good)
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-2H, 2S (good)
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1S-1N, 2H-3C
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987..1N-2H, 2S etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 2S etc
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N ........(good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876 V..1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N etc OR 1S-1N, 2D P (bad)
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-2H, 2S etc
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N-2H, 2S
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1S-2D, 2N-3H (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N-2H,3S-4S
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N etc
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S-1N, 2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N-2H, 3S-4S
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2D-2H, 3D
I think probably the biggest two plusses for this are avoiding Moysian's for bal opposite bal and being able to stop in 2S when responder is minimum. After 1N-2H opener can super-accept or not with three spades.
The pitfalls seem to occur most often when opener has the reds. No surprise there. He does well to rebid 1N with 5422 red hands. The most awkward hands for opener seem to be 1444 and 1543.
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43..1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2H-3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V..1N-etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V..1N-2H, 2S etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S (shows 5/4 non-invite)
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-2N, 2D-P or 3N (potentially bad)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N-2H, 2S (good)
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-2H, 2S (good)
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1S-1N, 2H-3C
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987..1N-2H, 2S etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 2S etc
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N ........(good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876 V..1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N etc OR 1S-1N, 2D P (bad)
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-2H, 2S etc
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N-2H, 2S
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1S-2D, 2N-3H (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N-2H,3S-4S
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N etc
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S-1N, 2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N-2H, 3S-4S
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2D-2H, 3D
#5
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Posted 2013-January-24, 14:56
Think I've made a mistake. Over 1C-1H,1S-1N
2C-GF relay
2D-5H/4m
2H-1444 or 4H/5+D
Also considering
1C-1H, 1S...
1N-bal or 5S332 or clubs or 3-suited short hearts such that 2+ clubs
2C-diamonds
2D-5S/4+H
2H-6S
2S-3-suited short D
etc-reverser hearts
2C-GF relay
2D-5H/4m
2H-1444 or 4H/5+D
Also considering
1C-1H, 1S...
1N-bal or 5S332 or clubs or 3-suited short hearts such that 2+ clubs
2C-diamonds
2D-5S/4+H
2H-6S
2S-3-suited short D
etc-reverser hearts
#6
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Posted 2013-January-24, 19:00
My thought here is to give opener more chances for showing hearts. For example when responder is 5332 and opener is 1543 it's problematic that 1C-1H, 1S-2D prevents opener from showing hearts. I've placed 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N rebids to always promise 2+ clubs so that opener can show spade tolerance with a 2N rebid (3S/5C unbal) and sometimes get to a 3C or 3S contract. Any better ideas? It's a challenging problem.
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
1C-1H,
.....1S-various
..........1N-bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-clubs
....................2H-5S332
....................2S-3-suited short diamonds
....................etc-bal
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
Testing now...
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43...1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2D-2N, 3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V...1N etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V...1N etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S to play
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-1N, 2D-2H (good)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N etc
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-etc
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1N (good)
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987...1N etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 3S-4S
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N (good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876...1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N-etc
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-4H, 4S
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D good
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N etc
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1N-2H, 2N (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N etc
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N (good)
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S -1N, 2D-2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N etc
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2N-3D
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
1C-1H,
.....1S-various
..........1N-bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-clubs
....................2H-5S332
....................2S-3-suited short diamonds
....................etc-bal
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
Testing now...
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43...1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2D-2N, 3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V...1N etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V...1N etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S to play
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-1N, 2D-2H (good)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N etc
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-etc
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1N (good)
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987...1N etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 3S-4S
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N (good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876...1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N-etc
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-4H, 4S
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D good
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N etc
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1N-2H, 2N (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N etc
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N (good)
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S -1N, 2D-2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N etc
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2N-3D
#7
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Posted 2013-January-25, 02:24
Now S/C at +0
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
Basically, I'm trying to stay out of each other's way. Opener has the first chance to show a 6-cd heart major (hearts of course) and this bid isn't relayable...because opener could have a 4+ card minor on the side. So basically, responder can pass, raise, or invite with 2N. 2S and 3m ought to be forcing. There's no 4th suit forcing option and it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to play 2S when we're at 2H.
If opener doesn't take his opportunity to show 6 hearts right away, responder can show six spades with a single-suited hand. This bid (2H) is actually relayable. If responder has a 6S/4m or 6S/4H hand he would show the other suit.
1C-1H, 1S-2S showing short hearts doesn't get in opener's way. This ought not cause a problem because opener should have a 4-cd minor if he doesn't have a balanced hand or 4-cd spade suit or 6-cd heart suit. So 2N is freed up as a relay bid and a minimum opening hand just offers to play 3m or 3S.
1C-1H, 1S-2D showing 4+S/5H at least lets opener sign off in 2S with a 3-cd suit. Pretty much always opener is going to have at least 3 spades or 4 hearts to relay. So no problem there. At worst we play a moysian when opener has 3-1-(54)
The higher bids 1C-1H, 1S-2N+ etc showing 5S/4H means we've found a fit in a major.
So most of the time responder will rebid 1N or 2C after 1C-1H, 1S.
The 2C rebid (showing diamonds) allows opener to show hearts (2H) which is known to be only a 5-cd suit. Maybe...
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-5H only (responder needs two hearts to pass)
.....2S-3S/5C
.....2N-
.....3C-
.....3D-3S/4+D
The 1N rebid (1C-1H, 1S-1N) handles the most patterns and always promises 2+ clubs...which doesn't gain us a lot but is a small something.
.....2C-GF relay
.....2D-5 hearts and an unbalanced hand
.....2H-reverser reds
.....2S-3S/5D
.....2N-3S/5C (often leading to a 3C contract)
The 4H/5D hand is a little problematic for this in that we're not rebidding 1N when unbalanced...so it's one additional hand type that opener has to describe. I don't know what to do with the 1444 and imagine opener will usually choose to rebid 1N and occasionally treat it as a red reverser.
1C-1H,
.....1S-GF OR 4 spades OR unbalanced with 3+ spades or 4+ hearts
..........1N-2+ clubs, bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-bal, 5332s, 3-suited short diamonds
.........................2H-asks
...............................2S-5332s or 3-suited short diamonds
.......................................2N-asks
............................................3C-5332s
............................................3D-4414
............................................3H-4405
............................................3S-4504
............................................3N-5404
...............................2N-4H
...............................etc-
....................etc-clubs
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
...............2S-GF relay
...............other-nf
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
1C-1H,
.....1S-various
..........1N-bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-clubs
....................2H-5S332
....................2S-3-suited short diamonds
....................etc-bal
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
Testing now...
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43...1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2D-2N, 3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V...1N etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V...1N etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S to play
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-1N, 2D-2H (good)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N etc
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-etc
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1N (good)
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987...1N etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 3S-4S
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N (good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876...1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N-etc
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-4H, 4S
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D good
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N etc
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1N-2H, 2N (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N etc
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N (good)
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S -1N, 2D-2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N etc
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2H-2N, 3D
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
Basically, I'm trying to stay out of each other's way. Opener has the first chance to show a 6-cd heart major (hearts of course) and this bid isn't relayable...because opener could have a 4+ card minor on the side. So basically, responder can pass, raise, or invite with 2N. 2S and 3m ought to be forcing. There's no 4th suit forcing option and it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to play 2S when we're at 2H.
If opener doesn't take his opportunity to show 6 hearts right away, responder can show six spades with a single-suited hand. This bid (2H) is actually relayable. If responder has a 6S/4m or 6S/4H hand he would show the other suit.
1C-1H, 1S-2S showing short hearts doesn't get in opener's way. This ought not cause a problem because opener should have a 4-cd minor if he doesn't have a balanced hand or 4-cd spade suit or 6-cd heart suit. So 2N is freed up as a relay bid and a minimum opening hand just offers to play 3m or 3S.
1C-1H, 1S-2D showing 4+S/5H at least lets opener sign off in 2S with a 3-cd suit. Pretty much always opener is going to have at least 3 spades or 4 hearts to relay. So no problem there. At worst we play a moysian when opener has 3-1-(54)
The higher bids 1C-1H, 1S-2N+ etc showing 5S/4H means we've found a fit in a major.
So most of the time responder will rebid 1N or 2C after 1C-1H, 1S.
The 2C rebid (showing diamonds) allows opener to show hearts (2H) which is known to be only a 5-cd suit. Maybe...
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-5H only (responder needs two hearts to pass)
.....2S-3S/5C
.....2N-
.....3C-
.....3D-3S/4+D
The 1N rebid (1C-1H, 1S-1N) handles the most patterns and always promises 2+ clubs...which doesn't gain us a lot but is a small something.
.....2C-GF relay
.....2D-5 hearts and an unbalanced hand
.....2H-reverser reds
.....2S-3S/5D
.....2N-3S/5C (often leading to a 3C contract)
The 4H/5D hand is a little problematic for this in that we're not rebidding 1N when unbalanced...so it's one additional hand type that opener has to describe. I don't know what to do with the 1444 and imagine opener will usually choose to rebid 1N and occasionally treat it as a red reverser.
1C-1H,
.....1S-GF OR 4 spades OR unbalanced with 3+ spades or 4+ hearts
..........1N-2+ clubs, bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-bal, 5332s, 3-suited short diamonds
.........................2H-asks
...............................2S-5332s or 3-suited short diamonds
.......................................2N-asks
............................................3C-5332s
............................................3D-4414
............................................3H-4405
............................................3S-4504
............................................3N-5404
...............................2N-4H
...............................etc-
....................etc-clubs
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
...............2S-GF relay
...............other-nf
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
1C-1H,
.....1S-various
..........1N-bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamonds
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-clubs
....................2H-5S332
....................2S-3-suited short diamonds
....................etc-bal
...............2D-5 hearts
....................2H-2 hearts
....................2S-5 spades, f
...............2H-4H/5D (like a 1D-1S, 2H reverse)
....................2S-nf
....................3C-GF
...............2S-3S/5D, unbalanced
...............2N-3S/5C, unbalanced
..........2C-diamonds
..........2D-4+S/5H
..........2H-6S, SS
..........2S-3-suited short hearts
...............2N-GF relay (opener should have a 4-cd minor or spades if minimum)
..........etc-5S/4H
Testing now...
AK5 KQ764 A3 QT8...J98743 KJT76 V 43...1N etc
874 KJ3 AT3 AKQ8...A932 T842 Q4 J75...1N etc
QJ AKJT4 9 AQJ85...T654 Q QJ6 96432...1S-1N, 2D-2N, 3C
AKT K2 K93 A8753...J5432 Q9865 AT4 V...1N etc
Q7 KQJ8 AKJ93 JT...J9542 AT9 Q8752 V...1N etc
A76 Q92 AK KJ974...KJ842 J843 85 T6...1N-2C, 2D-2S to play
AK8 K965 A6 KT94...QJT52 A873 54 65...1N-2C, 2H-4H
AQ3 KQJ42 AQ T95...JT852 A976 942 8...1N-2C, 2H
K AK6 AQJ82 J863...9653 Q95 KT6 Q75...2D-3D (good)
J AKJT9 AKJT2 86...AT843 63 84 KT72...1S-1N, 2D-2H (good)
AK7 AT9 82 AQT98...JT632 72 J5 K752...1N etc
T86 AJ AK2 AQ865...KQ974 542 T9 J94...1N-etc
73 KJ AK54 AJ876...J864 AQ762 T3 53...1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
T8 AK863 A2 AQ86...K653 4 K854 7432...1N (good)
K76 KQT75 AQ K65...AT984 V KT85 T987...1N etc
AK2 QJ6 AJ QJ982...Q7643 KT5 Q96 T5...1N-2H, 3S-4S
J7 QJ764 AQT AK5...6542 AT9 92 JT74...1N (good)
K5 Q642 AQ4 AK53...AQJT32 T98 9876...1N-4H, 4S
T4 AQJ74 KQT9 KQ...Q973 32 53 AJ732...1N-etc
AK2 95 AKT9 KT76...T98643 T 754 AQT...1N-4H, 4S
642 A976 AKJ AJ3...JT75 43 QT8732 Q...1N-3C, 3D good
A3 QJ985 AT6 AK4...KJ754 743 Q4 632...1N etc
K AKJ5 A843 K865...AQ753 942 T72 T9...1N-2H, 2N (bad)
KJ8 54 AKQ9 A653...AT964 JT JT754 4...1N etc
AK3 AK543 983 KJ...Q754 T9 QJ65 Q72...1N (good)
T AQ753 AJ2 KQJT...KJ95 J6 9853 963...1S -1N, 2D-2H
AJT AKQ5 T82 A98...Q6542 86 Q973 K6...1N etc
AQ6 K762 AKQ872 V..T542 JT9 J AJ876...1S-1N, 2H-2N, 3D
#8
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- Posts: 1,261
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- Gender:Male
Posted 2013-January-25, 19:26
straube, on 2013-January-25, 02:24, said:
Now S/C at +0
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
Basically, I'm trying to stay out of each other's way. Opener has the first chance to show a 6-cd heart major (hearts of course) and this bid isn't relayable...because opener could have a 4+ card minor on the side. So basically, responder can pass, raise, or invite with 2N. 2S and 3m ought to be forcing. There's no 4th suit forcing option and it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to play 2S when we're at 2H.
After 1C-1H....
1N-bal, strain to rebid 1N when balanced
2C-unbal, 6 clubs or 4D/5C or 4H/5C, if only 3(41)5 rebid 1S instead
2D-unbal, 6 diamonds or 5D/4C, if 3154 rebid 1S instead
2H-6H, may have side suit
2S-5D/5C
Basically, I'm trying to stay out of each other's way. Opener has the first chance to show a 6-cd heart major (hearts of course) and this bid isn't relayable...because opener could have a 4+ card minor on the side. So basically, responder can pass, raise, or invite with 2N. 2S and 3m ought to be forcing. There's no 4th suit forcing option and it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to play 2S when we're at 2H.
It seems playable based a cursory look. Perhaps, a good test will be to compare the outcomes with the original and modified scheme using the hands that you have posted on the thread.
Did you have time to think about Adam's ruminations about possibly rearranging the relay responses so that hands with only 4♠ rebid say 1N? It will likely push out the balanced hands into 2♣, because there will be 3-other reversed suits to deal with after a 4♠ only rebid.
foobar on BBO
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,071
- Joined: 2009-January-18
- Gender:Male
- Location:Vancouver WA USA
Posted 2013-January-26, 11:41
akhare, on 2013-January-25, 19:26, said:
It seems playable based a cursory look. Perhaps, a good test will be to compare the outcomes with the original and modified scheme using the hands that you have posted on the thread.
Did you have time to think about Adam's ruminations about possibly rearranging the relay responses so that hands with only 4♠ rebid say 1N? It will likely push out the balanced hands into 2♣, because there will be 3-other reversed suits to deal with after a 4♠ only rebid.
Did you have time to think about Adam's ruminations about possibly rearranging the relay responses so that hands with only 4♠ rebid say 1N? It will likely push out the balanced hands into 2♣, because there will be 3-other reversed suits to deal with after a 4♠ only rebid.
I don't think that rearranging to put the 4-only spade hands into 1N or 2C rebids is the answer. I think that forces the 5+ spade hands higher and this will sometimes preempt opener and actually hurt our chances of finding fits.
I think one of the key things is to stay out of opener's way when he has five hearts. If 1C-1H, 1S-2D can show a 5S332 then you can't play 2H when opener has five.
Staying out of each other's way is the general theme of this. It's about showing preference (taking up space) only when the action is likely to find a fit.
Looking at 1C-1H rebids...
1S-GF relay OR 4+S OR 3S unbalanced with a minor OR 4/5H unbalanced with a minor
1N-balanced
2C-6 clubs or 5C without 3 spades (may have 4H or 4D)
2D-6 diamonds or 5D without 3 spades (may have 4C)
2H-6 hearts with or without a side minor
2S-5/5 minors
2N-debating on whether natural (20) or 1444 min.
So pretty careful not to commit.
After 1C-1H, 1S
1N-bal, 5S332, clubs, 3-suited short diamond
2C-diamonds
2D-4+S/5H
2H-6 spades
2S-3-suited short heart
etc-5S/4H
So the only bid that gets in opener's way when he has five hearts is the 2H bid when responder has 6 spades. We can still pick up heart fits after 1C-1H, 1S-2H, 2N-3H (showing 3 hearts) but the idea is that when responder has six+ spades and opener can at most have five hearts that we're a heavy favorite to belong in spades. Even the 1C-1H, 1S-2S showing short hearts doesn't get in opener's way...because if opener has five hearts and a minimum hand, he'll also have a four-cd minor.
The other guiding principle is to use the discovery of fits to support finding superior fits. The easiest example of this is if I as opener hold 3145. I could just rebid 2C with this and have adequate room to pattern out my hand, but I might lose out on a 5-3 spade fit. So I rebid 1S here and then judge what to do. If pd rebids 2C showing diamonds I raise diamonds. I need to work on continuations here, but the idea is that we can find one fit and explore then for a better fit. Now say I have the same 3145 and pd rebids 1N promising 2+ clubs. In that event I can rebid 2N showing 3 spades and 5 clubs and most days find an 8-cd black suit fit.
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