[cf_John0]

jahol, on Dec 14 2004, 03:16 AM, said:

One board from yesterday:

Partner..A85--AJ109--1032--AKQ
Me.........KQJ107432--2--Q--xxx

Bidding (partner was the dealer):
1 club---pass---1 spade---2 dia
double--pass---4 spades--pass....

The double was support - exactly 3 cards in spades, no info about HCPs (particularly...no extra HCP values).

The discussion:
Me: You have too many HCPs to pass my 4S bid. I bid 4S taking into account a possibility of only 12 HCPs in your hand.
Partner: You have too big distribution to jump to 4S, you could have bid 3dia first.
Me: You are right, but still you should not have passed 4S bid. By the way, it seems to me that 3dia-4spades sequence should represent a bit different type of hand.

Who should be blamed for missing cold slam, in your opinion? Me, partner or both of us?

Jahol

Jahol,IMO,you should be blamed for the missed slam bidding.
I agree with your pd completely:
The key to the slam is control(s) of Di,especially after opp's competitive 2D.
It's obvious!

[HeartA]

Fluffy, on Dec 14 2004, 06:41 PM, said:

Autosplinter is simply insane (Imo, maybe its me who is crazy).

What has changed from your previous intention form bidding 4♠ previous round?

You hold 6 playing HCP, not 12, splinter is made for partner to reevaluate his Qs and Ks outside ♦, wich we DON´T want to happen, 4♠ doesn´t describe much the hand, but at least it doesn´t missdescribe it.

OK, you want more HCP. How is that ♠KJxxx, ♥Kxx, ♦K, ♣Jxx. Now you have a lot more HCP? Bridge is about tricks, not HCP.

[LH2650]

What is going to happen over the proposed splinter? If opener has a weak notrump, all roads lead to 4 spades. If he has a 2 notrump rebid, probably all roads lead to 6 spades. It is unlikely that he has a distributional hand, since the opponents should be bidding more. My simulations indicate that the slam is in the 53% to 56% range opposite the strong hand, depending on assumptions about opener's diamond length.

[EricK]

junyi_zhu, on Dec 16 2004, 01:00 AM, said:

EricK, on Dec 15 2004, 08:58 PM, said:

But how often does opener have a 2NT opening? And even then how many of those have three losers in a side suit?

I think that catering for that sort of special hand is a losing proposition on all the other hands.

Eric

Sigh, why are you guys are stubborn like this? I am not saying 4S is always a poor bid or good bid. All I want to point out is that your claim is no true if there is no overcall. a slam can be easily bid without much complicate stuff. That's why I called it's a false claim. You can do whatever you like in bidding, but I don't really like claims like even without overcalls, there is no way to find a slam and responder should always jump to 4S the next round. It just doesn't make sense to me.

At the risk of appearing even more stubborn...

I was no longer talking about whether slam would be found on this hand with no interference, so introducing the sequence you did is neither here nor there. It doesn't even falsify a claim I made : In the sequence you have proposed, South has not told North about the 2 extra trumps he has, and I don't think he can; and South has not discovered from North that he has cover for all the ♣ losers and I don't think that is going to be easy (unless playing sophisticated methods).

Eric

[Fluffy]

[quote name='HeartA' date='Dec 16 2004, 02:00 AM'] [quote name='Fluffy' date='Dec 14 2004, 06:41 PM'] Autosplinter is simply insane (Imo, maybe its me who is crazy).

What has changed from your previous intention form bidding 4[sp] previous round?

You hold 6 playing HCP,  not 12, splinter is made for partner to reevaluate his Qs and Ks outside [di], wich we DON´T want to happen, 4[sp] doesn´t describe much the hand, but at least it doesn´t missdescribe it. [/quote]
OK, you want more HCP. How is that [sp]KJxxx, [he]Kxx, [di]K, [cl]Jxx. Now you have a lot more HCP? Bridge is about tricks, not HCP. [/quote]
This is a pairs game, not a make partner guess game.

IF you are gonna have 12 HCP for splintering, you better have 7 Spades or 64, if you wanna splinter with 5431 you should have around 16, and don´t count that nuts [di]K.

4[di] will often lead to 5[sp] with 5 top losers, or on a bad example you are probably ending in 7[sp] when partner just has something like these:

Axx, KQxx, xxx, KQx.

Yes it works wonderfully when aprtner doesn´t have [he]K nor [he]Q, but that isn´t likelly, when [he] hasn´t been bid at all partner probably has 4 cards... or someone has a very 'weak' suit to be introduced.

Give partner something more likelly, like

Axx, Hxxx, xx, AQxx and you will probably end in 5 minus 1 as well.

[/QUOTE]Jahol,IMO,you should be blamed for the missed slam bidding.
I agree with your pd completely:
The key to the slam is control(s) of Di,especially after opp's competitive 2D.
It's obvious! [QUOTE]

The only obvious thing I see is North should bid something elses with 18 HCP full of top tricks, 5[sp] can be too much for you, but 5[cl]-ps-5[di]-ps-5[he] looks like a very good aproach to a slam invitation without [di] control.

[junyi_zhu]

EricK, on Dec 16 2004, 08:39 AM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Dec 16 2004, 01:00 AM, said:

EricK, on Dec 15 2004, 08:58 PM, said:

But how often does opener have a 2NT opening? And even then how many of those have three losers in a side suit?

I think that catering for that sort of special hand is a losing proposition on all the other hands.

Eric

Sigh, why are you guys are stubborn like this? I am not saying 4S is always a poor bid or good bid. All I want to point out is that your claim is no true if there is no overcall. a slam can be easily bid without much complicate stuff. That's why I called it's a false claim. You can do whatever you like in bidding, but I don't really like claims like even without overcalls, there is no way to find a slam and responder should always jump to 4S the next round. It just doesn't make sense to me.

At the risk of appearing even more stubborn...

I was no longer talking about whether slam would be found on this hand with no interference, so introducing the sequence you did is neither here nor there. It doesn't even falsify a claim I made : In the sequence you have proposed, South has not told North about the 2 extra trumps he has, and I don't think he can; and South has not discovered from North that he has cover for all the ♣ losers and I don't think that is going to be easy (unless playing sophisticated methods).

Eric

"3) Even if the opponents don't intervene you will never be able to describe this hand to partner except by blasting to 4♠ at some point. "
This is your claim, and if you bid 4S over a 2NT rebid, you are just a loser, period. I wouldn't discuss with you about it any more, it's just a waste of time.

[EricK]

junyi_zhu, on Dec 18 2004, 11:30 AM, said:

"3) Even if the opponents don't intervene you will never be able to describe this hand to partner except by blasting to 4♠ at some point. "
This is your claim, and if you bid 4S over a 2NT rebid, you are just a loser, period. I wouldn't discuss with you about it any more, it's just a waste of time.

I wouldn't bid 4♠ over 2NT. But I have painted myself into a corner, because whatever I bid over 2NT I won't have described my hand (weak hand; semi-solid 8 card suit).

And if opener's rebid is something other than 2NT (as is overwhelmingly likely) I can make all the artificial forcing bids I want (FSF, Bourke relay, TSAR or whatever) and I still won't have described my hand.

The closest I can ever come to describing it is to jump to 4♠, and the best time to do that (as suggested by the small sample of hands I mentioned earlier) is immediately.

You keep collecting your +100s from defending 5♥X or conceding -50s from 5♠. I'll settle for my +420s

Eric