[zasanya]

N Dealer NS Vul System 2/1 1♦-P-1♥-3♣-?

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Questions
1) Does support double apply here?
2) If support double does not apply or if you are not playing support doubles what would you bid here?

[SteveMoe]

Most play support double through 2♥ so that if we stop in a 4-3 fit we are "Lawful" (7 tricks - 7 trumps). Some play support doubles over 4th seat preempts as in this hand - but this is an exception that needs explicit discussion. It also needs about a Q or K more in strength.

This hand is a minimum (13 HCP and 7 losers) and the shape is takeout over their ♣. Support points don't yet apply since we do not have an 8-card fit established.
Double here is usually penalty showing a different shape and more strength.

At the point we have to make this call we know that our side has at least 18 HCP. Give RHO 7 HCP for the preempt and 15 HCP are yet be accounted for. It is highly unlikely that LHO has an opening hand - if s/he does, s/he holds long ♦s.

If responder has long ♣ and a weak hand, defending 3♣ will be a good spot.
If responder has 5+♥ and a good hand, they will inform us nowbid and we can support.
Will LHO raises to 4 or 5 ♣? NTW: Partner can make a cards double of a 4 or 5 level contract to help.

So I pass.

[aguahombre]

Good job, Steve. I pass because I have nothing correct to bid with the same opener I started with; you explained it more thoroughly.

[Codo]

Double here would be take out for me and some more, our shape is perfect, your High card strength is not.

So: 1. For me not, I play support doubles till 2 ♥.
2. I double. I would like to have an ace extra, or at least the queen of hearts. But the shape is perfect, the High cards are nice and my hand much stronger as the point count suggestes. This will take me to some horrile games, but so be it....

[MrAce]

To me DBL here is take out.

Would i double with this ? Tbh tuff question....i would feel comfy by neither pass nor dbl, but knowing myself i probably would not have passed.

Vulnerability makes it dangerous to act, but missing a game is also dangerous at this colour...Isn't this why people preempt ?

So DBL for me, though i totally understand passers. My own experiences taught me over the years to go with the shape when i had to choose between shape and strength.

I disagree though with Aguaman who says my hand is the same hand that i started with. Now i know my stiff is in the suit where opponents claim to be strong and my chances to find a fit is extremely high. My hand is not the same hand i started with, however it is not clear if my hand improved enough to make a neg DBL or not. Problem of course will be, whether we will be able to play our fit at the correct level after my agressive dbl or not, but i didn't claim double is auto here or that it is perfect. I am probably overbidding again

[paulg]

MrAce covers most of the bases, but I'll just add that I'm happier overbidding with shortage in their suit than with two or three clubs. So double for me.

[the hog]

Pass. I understand a x but do not like it and partner will overbid, expecting more.

[the_clown]

I would pass, not strong enough to double.

[gwnn]

I would double, (my will power is) not strong enough to pass.

This really is a strong hand, and it only got stronger after this round.

Double shows extras (in this case we have great shape and controls and concentration) and often 3 hearts but also 4252 and some other hands will double.

[r_prah]

Pass. I need another king to double. True, we have the perfect shape for a t/o dbl, but the hearts are weak if we end up in a heart contract. And if partner cannot act again, we probably don't make game.

[zasanya]

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This was the full hand . Almost everyone agrees double is not support double.
Thank you all but now some more questions.
1) After 'take out/ value showing double' or pass what should S do? Jump to 4♥?
2) If S does jump to 4 ♥do you think NS can reach the reasonable slam?
3) I think it's a reasonable slam . Do you agree?

[Codo]

1. I would not like any call with the south hand, but I would just jump to 4 ♥.
2. After this jump north hands is a monster. He does not need to care too much about trump quality, but his bullets and his side suit are golden. OTOH: At the table, I may had passed 4 ♥, I need solid trumps and the queen of diamonds to make slam reasonable, a lot to hope for-espacially as I am (sub-) minimum for my X. Seeing both hands influences my descission, so I do not know.
3. The slam is great. After the preempt, you are quite likely to pick up the heart suit- East rates to have 2+ hearts, what makes a second round finesse (here not necessary) a good bet.

[aguahombre]

zasanya, on 2013-January-08, 09:10, said:

This was the full hand . Almost everyone agrees double is not support double.
Thank you all but now some more questions.
1) After 'take out/ value showing double' or pass what should S do? Jump to 4♥?
2) If S does jump to 4 ♥do you think NS can reach the reasonable slam?

Codo, on 2013-January-08, 09:20, said:

1. I would not like any call with the south hand, but I would just jump to 4 ♥.
2. After this jump north hands is a monster. He does not need to care too much about trump quality, but his bullets and his side suit are golden. OTOH: At the table, I may had passed 4 ♥, I need solid trumps and the queen of diamonds to make slam reasonable, a lot to hope for-espacially as I am (sub-) minimum for my X. Seeing both hands influences my descission, so I do not know.

To me, the answer to #1 would be Codo's answer. After that, North's hand would truly have become a monster if he had passed, since he was expected to have a routine minimum and he has a third heart and controls abound. However, if a double by opener had shown something like opener's distribution, then North should righteously fear he had already stated (overstated) its value and pass because South was bidding based on those values.

BTW: If I had doubled as Opener, our partnership would not attain a very good result since it would have shown extra strength, serious heart shortness, and thus a few clubs. But that is really not relevant because that is not OP's understanding of opener's double.

[cherdano]

I think the traditional meaning of double in this position is penalty-ish, typicaclly 18-19 balanced. But I am not sure anyone plays that anymore. I prefer takeout.

[Fluffy]

north makes a take out double of 3♣ and south is sitting on a monster, what does he do? well certainly make a forcing bid!, or at least something really descriptive, 4♣ looks fine for I/A, 5♥ is another option.