[mr1303]

---

What do you say here?

Options are double again
3S
Pass?

[PhilKing]

I feel no love for this hand.

Pass looks good.

[ggwhiz]

Pass

3♦ is a game try for hearts in my neck of the woods. Why double and tell them to stop at three?

When they do stop back to me I'll let it go, partner is broke and unless they have 4 spades I might go for a number but if they step out in 4♥ I'll express my opinion.

[mikeh]

We have some clues.

RHO could be jerking us around, but that would be a dangerous game since his partner may not be in on the joke, and may take the game try seriously. So we can assume that RHO is non-minimum, altho some of that could be shape. It isn't great diamonds, tho!

The Q♥ is a big negative holding. It may be a defensive trick since declarer may well hook into us, but it is an offensive liability. It gives us no additional offensive power and is a card the opps don't have....yet they are trying for game so have compensating values elsewhere, which is bad for us.

We can expect partner to hold perhaps 0-3 hcp. There is a strong likelihood of his holding 3 hearts, so that the opps can tap us at trick 3. There is a strong likelihood that he has no fast entry for us to take a spade finesse. He may hold 4 or even 5 spades, but there is no reason that LHO doesn't hold, say, K10xx in spades and he'll lower the boom on us if we bid spades. Meanwhile, partner may have nowhere to go. Picture him with xxx xxx xxxx xxx. It's not that I expect that, but it is consistent with the auction. He'd need magic cards for us to fare well in spades and any number of more likely hands spell disaster of one sort or another.

All told, this is one of those rare hands on which holding half the deck isn't enough for us to contest the auction beyond our initial action. One of my favourite sayings, in close situations, is that it is too dangerous to pass. Here, however, it is (far) too dangerous to bid.

Pass seems clear.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

Partner is broke, and we dont have game / or a part score.

I will try to go for blood, if they bid 4H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[lalldonn]

3♠. Why should I believe them? If partner is as broke as everyone believes he will pass anyway. If they are serious then it's based on extra shape so I am probably fine playing 3♠ instead of defending 3♥. The other nice thing is if they bid 4♥ I won't have to risk a double since my hand will be shown. Partner can double if he is short in spades, pass if he is completely broke in which case I was not getting rich or they could even be making, etc.

I think if you double planning on bidding again, you should go out of your way to do so if at all possible.

[JLOGIC]

I would also never pass.

[WellSpyder]

JLOGIC, on 2012-December-13, 11:12, said:

I would also never pass.

OP describes himself as an admirer of Walter the Walrus, so I think we can take it as given that he will also not be looking to pass on this hand.

[PhilKing]

WellSpyder, on 2012-December-13, 11:30, said:

OP describes himself as an admirer of Walter the Walrus, so I think we can take it as given that he will also not be looking to pass on this hand.

"But I had 20 ..." explained the Walrus as he entered -1100 above the line.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on 2012-December-13, 10:34, said:

There is a strong likelihood of his holding 3 hearts

RHO has made a game-try on a hand that is rather lacking in aces, critical queens, and overall strength. Isn't it quite likely that he has six hearts?

[mikeh]

gnasher, on 2012-December-13, 12:03, said:

RHO has made a game-try on a hand that is rather lacking in aces, critical queens, and overall strength. Isn't it quite likely that he has six hearts?

Ok, 'strong' likelihood was an over/misbid. 'Significant possibility' is more apt. And does it matter a great deal? If rho has 6 hearts, one assumes he has at least 4 diamonds, so for every extra spade that might give partner, it might instead give one (as near as can be) to LHO, increasing the prospects of only learning how horrific 3♠ will be when they double and dummy is tabled.

I still pass, well aware that two of the best players on this forum advocate bidding.

I'd like to run a simulation, but I don't know what constraints to program since so much depends on opener's propensities. Even if I generated a host of hands, deciding which ones were plausible would be far too subjective an exercise not to mention evaluating the frequency of doubles, etc and then there's always the play

[billw55]

Could this be a situation where west might raise with psuedo-shapely junk? Something like x Jxxx xxx QTxxx ?

[mikeh]

billw55, on 2012-December-13, 15:09, said:

Could this be a situation where west might raise with psuedo-shapely junk? Something like x Jxxx xxx QTxxx ?

Most would, I think, preempt with that....certainly I would. In addition, if that's a typical hand, then partner probably has enough to venture 2♠ given that RHO appears to have a red 2-suiter.

However, xxx Jxxx xx Q10xx would be maybe a junky raise, too flat to risk preempting and too many hearts to risk passing.

So while I disagree with your example, I accept your concern. My point remains: is the gamble of bidding worth the cost of his holding, say, K10xx Jxx xx K10xx, with which he'd still presumably bid 2♥ and you rate to go for 800 against a partscore?

[MrAce]

I have a question

What is the difference between bidding 3♠ now and passing and then bidding 3♠ over 3♥. 3♦ will not be passed out. If LHO bids 4♥ we know that pd is the broke one at the table. And we definetely dont wanna play 4♠ with this shape even if pd has 4 spades, which i would auto raise with 4 card support and nothing else, i maybe too agressive or insane but some other pds would raise with a little more than just 4 card spades and imo 4♠ will still not be fun to play. We know we aint gonna win anything from the lead and our communication with dummy will be VERY limited.

Ohh and of course there are those times in which he may not have 4 card spades...or not even 3 card spades. (I confess that they will not dbl us with the lack of aces in partscore, or even in game, unless one of them has 2-3 trump tricks)

Did i sound too pessimistic this time ?

[lalldonn]

The first time, ever, that Mr Ace was a wimp

[benlessard]

Doubling 3D show a hand that would double 3H except that its safer, passing and doubling 3H would show a stronger hand (direct weakest philosphy). I play the same way for passing & 3S.

So here doubling 3D make sense since my hand is not that good, I really hate bidding a 5 card suit at the 3 level.


probably better is

Pass and X penalty,
X and X strong takeout
X good takeout. But our agreement are not that sharp.

[PhilKing]

benlessard, on 2012-December-13, 16:45, said:

So here doubling 3D make sense since my hand is not that good, I really hate bidding a 5 card suit at the 3 level.

Whereas partner will love bidding 4♣ on five small.

[PhilKing]

.

[SteveMoe]

benlessard - I like your agreement. Not one I have with any of my partners, so doubling 3♦ might induce some instability giving partner to much to think about: Am I Black suit heavy? Do I want a ♦ led (eventually), Do I have extras and insist on takeout?

Passing then doubling might imply extras, but opposite a nonresponsive (and known weak) partner pass then double ought to be penalty (I want to double them at their final level, not before).

LHO's raise over the first double is very weak. (Would be good to know if they play BROMAD or something similar). Opener probably has perhaps 17 HCP + Distribution. We ought to be happy if partner has as much as 2 Jacks. I will pass then double, depending on partner to interpret his/her own weakness as a sign that it's penalty time. When I raise the stakes I don't want partner to run. (December 2012 Bridge World p32 by Jeff Rubens).

[PhilKing]

I'm not entirely sure you two (BenL and SteveM) are actually in agreement, but I am sure that a double of 3♦ should be for penalties.

Were I in possession of a very strong 4135 or similar, I would pass and then double 3♥ for take-out. Now on this particular hand, I expect 3♥ to go off, but I do not long for a method geared towards doubling them into game and beating them a trick.