[jillybean]

---

1N 14-17
2♠ spades
3♠ cue bid stayman, gf with 4 ♥'s

Your bid?

[mr1303]

Does partner have a spade stopper here?

[lowerline]

Double. What else?

Steven

[Codo]

mr1303, on 2012-December-06, 01:21, said:

Does partner have a spade stopper here?

Yes may he hold Kxx or JTxx?

I want to meet some of your usual opps and play penalty doubles all the way....

Now, which choices do I have:
Pass forcing. No clear direction.
Double: Penalty- I often have two tricks in spades and no good heart fit.

I would pass. If partner has around one spade and 4 hearts, he has 8 cards in the minors, so we have a fit there. If he decides to compete, I am fine with that. If he has more spades, he will double anyway.

[mr1303]

The reason I asked was that 3S usually shows 4 hearts and a spade stopper (if playing fast shows, the more common way).

Anyway, assuming that partner doesn't have a spade stopper (else double is automatic) then I like pass as well. Partner can double himself if he wants to defend, otherwise 5 (6?) of a minor might be good.

[rmnka447]

The 4 ♠ bid tells me there's plenty of distribution in this hand.

I can't see RHO chiming in at 4 ♠ with less than 4 of them.

If the 2 ♠ bid was a DONT 2 ♠ bid, it's just possible that ♠ AQ might be worth 2 tricks. But otherwise, I'd think LHO ♠holding has something like ♠ KJ or ♠ K10 heading it up. Partner will often have no more than 1 ♠. I wouldn't be surprised if partner's hand had a 5 or 6 card minor suit in it. The problem is I don't know which it is.

So, I like the forcing pass that Codo suggests, also.

BTW, almost all the Lebensohl players I know play fast denies a stopper. That would be more in context with the actual auction.

[Mbodell]

mr1303, on 2012-December-06, 03:46, said:

The reason I asked was that 3S usually shows 4 hearts and a spade stopper (if playing fast shows, the more common way).

Anyway, assuming that partner doesn't have a spade stopper (else double is automatic) then I like pass as well. Partner can double himself if he wants to defend, otherwise 5 (6?) of a minor might be good.

It may be more common where you are from, but in the US fast denies is standard and mainstream. I'd say fast denies is at least as dominate over fast shows as rkc 1430 is over rkc 3014.

And I'd X with the given hand.

[Zelandakh]

mr1303, on 2012-December-06, 03:46, said:

The reason I asked was that 3S usually shows 4 hearts and a spade stopper (if playing fast shows, the more common way).

UK Standard is "NT, no stopper"; US (and arguably World) Standard is "slow shows".

[Phil]

Interesting. Should pass promise four hearts? Should it deny a spade stopper or at least secondary spade values that are useful for defense?

My reaction is to bid 4N, because thats what I think I can make, but form of scoring might matter too.

[aguahombre]

My problem with bidding 4NT right now is that it deprives partner of that pleasure. We might belong in a Diamond contract from this side of the table.

If we pass and partner doubles -- NT would be a natural choice to play it there on this auction, at these colors.

BTW: My partner would most likely be 1-4-4-4 to bid 4NT, or maybe a 5-bagger and 1-4-(53), or 0-4-(54). Otherwise she would have chosen to freely bid a 6-card minor at the 3-level.

[lalldonn]

I'm not going to pass without four hearts since that's what partner will assume a pass shows. I'm not going to bid 4NT without a suit that I know is running. I think double is obvious.

[ggwhiz]

pass should encourage an offensive option with x's in spades in a potential 30 pt deck. With these hcp's in spades double is clear to bring pard into the picture regardless of what they do next.

[jillybean]

IMP scoring, partners 3♠ denies a ♠ stopper.

I considered 5♦ but doubled 4♠ which made. Partner held 8,KJ75,AJ93,JT93

[Codo]

lalldonn, on 2012-December-06, 10:38, said:

I'm not going to pass without four hearts since that's what partner will assume a pass shows.

Why?

[SteveMoe]

Double - Cards.
Tolerance for partner's suit, 2 high cards in their suit, no clear sense 5m can work. After partner's GF we own the deck.
I cannot be sure we can make 4NT. Besides without discussion partner might take 4N as RKB for ♥.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2012-December-06, 06:56, said:

UK Standard is "NT, no stopper"; US (and arguably World) Standard is "slow shows".

What does the first part of this mean?

In my experience, "Slow shows" is more common in the UK, but I am waiting for bluejak to say that at his clubs, players have not agreed whether "slow shows" or "fast shows" and choose their method at random.

[Zelandakh]

OK, perhaps I should say that "NT, no stopper" is traditionally Standard in the UK. It is true that many have adopted the American method, especially around London. In the same way that many more Londoners seem to play 5 card majors than out in the provinces...