[32519]

This hand with the actual bidding came up tonight at the club. How should the hand have been bid?

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How does partner know when you are balancing?

[PhilKing]

I've seen worse. They make 2♥ but it's difficult to get in yet stop safely.

[billw55]

That's not balancing, it is just a takeout double. Balancing means calls after two passes.

With bad shape, I think the double is too pushy, but like PK says I have seen worse. Once it is made, 3♠ looks right. If north does not double, then after two passes south has an actual balancing decision. With the Q♥ looking bad, I would pass, resulting in 2♥W=. If south balances with 2♠ anyway, north will raise to 3♠ and play there, down one or two, or conceivably making on wrong defense and good guessing.

[gszes]

we have all heard the theory that p "borrows" 7 hcp from p when getting ready to make
a TOX. If that is the case we have something close to zero extra for our response to
the tox. I do not see a 3s bid at all i see a 2s bid. If p has around 18 they will raise to
3s and we can accept the invite. If the heart Q had been elsewhere than this hand is
worth a 3s bid.

[ewj]

I would double as North but if North passed, I would definitely balance with 2S.
I think the bidding given is reasonable tbh! Can't be perfect on every hand. You're very close to making 3♠...

I reckon it could slip through....HK lead and a diamond switch? Don't really think West would switch to their diamond but if they did and you won in dummy, you'd lead a trump off and East would have to duck...might fly to try and give partner ruff...

[the_clown]

I would never double with the North hand. I have only 3♠ and a weak no trump and partner failed to open the bidding. Furthermore I hate my 3 little hearts.

I would also balance with 2S as South, raised to 3, so it will come down to the same ending.

[kenberg]

A double by N has a high chance of landing the partnership in a 4-3 spade fit. Then, even if S has only two hearts, he will not be able to ruff the third round of hearts without risking loss of control. A pretty high risk, given the 2♥ opening. This argues for a pass. I think I would in fact do that, but I can be as susceptible to wishful thinking as the next guy. Of course this time you caught partner with a five card suit. That's the good news. The bad noews is that he bid 3♠. I would have done so as well, although if Lebensohl was available (starting with 2NT, relaying to 3♣, and then bidding 3♠ to show a hand that is worth 3♠ but nothing to write home about) that would have been my choice.

Now if it goes 2♥-paass-pass-? I think I would pass. My own view, and I think my experience backs me up, is that balancing is highly oversold. When I bid 2♠ I certainly want my partner to be able to raise to 3♠ on the holding he has. My pessimism about balancing is a minority view, however.

If there is a way to get to 2♠ passed out, I have no idea what it is. And you weren't doubled so 3♠ may have scored ok against 2♥ making, no?

[Zelandakh]

 kenberg, on 2012-December-05, 07:31, said:

If there is a way to get to 2♠ passed out, I have no idea what it is. And you weren't doubled so 3♠ may have scored ok against 2♥ making, no?

That part is easy. Bid 2♦, then say: "Oh sorry, I thought there was a 1NT opening," and when the TD gives you your options correct to 2♠.

[kenberg]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-December-05, 07:36, said:

That part is easy. Bid 2♦, then say: "Oh sorry, I thought there was a 1NT opening," and when the TD gives you your options correct to 2♠.

I no longer remember the details but I had such an experience at a club once. Lho was a pro., RHO a client, and in a competitive auction LHO made an insufficient bid. I pointed this out and he said I should call the director, I could have his partner barred from the auction. I said something like "Oh, it's just a club game, just make your call". He insisted i call the director to get his partner barred. I insisted we just go on. LHO replaced his insufficient bid with a pass, RHO did not get the message and bid on, doubled and down.

I now return this thread to it's rightful topic.

[Zelandakh]

I think you might have quietly mentioned that incident to the TD Ken. Once the TD gets wind of what is going on, it should be pretty easy for her/him to start pulling out Law 23, especially since Law 27 specifically provides a link to it.

[kenberg]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-December-05, 08:05, said:

I think you might have quietly mentioned that incident to the TD Ken. Once the TD gets wind of what is going on, it should be pretty easy for her/him to start pulling out Law 23, especially since Law 27 specifically provides a link to it.

Yes indeed, I should have done so. No one would have been hugely surprised, however.
I believe that the problem, over time, has solved itself.

[Codo]

I think that people here doubles more often then the people in your local club. I am usually one of the passers on BBF, but here it is close. Make it 3244 and I would double without a second thought.

Ken,
I think your idea about balancing is wrong. But maybe one of the reasons for your bad experience is that partner will raise your 2 ♠ balancing on hands like this one. Why should he ever thing about raising? You passed allready and which game will make opposite a maximum pass?

But over 2 ♥ paaaaaassss pass I would pass too. If 2 ♠ is successful, the TD will often take it away, so I hope to survive 2 ♥. But I must admit that I am close to ruling: No alternative to 2 ♠, but just close to...

[kenberg]

I was careless here, I had forgotten I was a passed hand and 2♥ was third seat. This makes 2♠ more attractive and a pass opposite my balance more likely. N can reason that sure maybe, just maybe, there could be a game but it will require everything just right. It needs a maximum passed hand 2♠ and probably some luck to go with it.

And yes, if I had two hearts instead of three I would then double with the N hand. Being able to ruff the third round of hearts in the hand with the short trumps, even if overruffed, is a lot more attractive. If we are in a 4-3 spade fit, at least the overruff will shorten East's rather likely four card holding. If we are going to play in 4-3, we would like a strongish 3 card holding, well we sort of have it tho KT4 would be better, and a shortness in the suit that they will be leading. And still there can be problems. But with two hearts and three spades I would reason that maybe partner has five, maybe he has three and bids one of my minors, maybe he has four and can handle it after he ruffs the third heart in dummy.
But with the actual hand, with three hears, I think i let it go by. And yes, if pard balances, I pass. This assumes that I am awake and recall he passed originally.