[Phil]

Swiss w v r

Xxx KJxx xx Qxxx

1D (1s) x (3s);
4s

What do you do if:

RHO x's
RHO passes

[gnasher]

I think partner is showing a slam try in hearts.

If RHO passes, I bid 5♥, because I have a minimum and nothing to cue-bid.

If RHO doubles, I'm just about worth an encouraging pass, because my minimum does include three honours in the right place, and a doubleton diamond. I think I'm denying any minor-suit ace or king when I do this.

[wyman]

Agree almost 100% w Andy. I'm just not totally convinced that I'm denying a card in the minors with my pass.

[Phil]

If you pass the x, partner would bid 5♦. Does the change the complexion of 4♠?

[gnasher]

Phil, on 2012-December-02, 00:23, said:

If you pass the x, partner would bid 5♦. Does the change the complexion of 4♠?

The 4♠ has to have a meaning that works if the next hand passes. If 4♠ showed an undefined good hand, it would be impossible to respond to it after ...4♠-pass.

You could just about play 4♠ as either a heart raise or a strong hand with diamonds, but it would still make the auction horrible - no Keycard, because you don't know what the suit is; no diamond cue-bids from either side, because 5♦ has to show a sign-off; more evaluation problems, because responder doesn't know what trumps are.

It's better to assign a single meaning to the cue-bid, and start with double or a jump on all other strong hands. The hand that cue-bids should be the one where opener would least like to hear a pass of a takeout double. That hand is a heart raise.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2012-December-02, 02:40, said:

The 4♠ has to have a meaning that works if the next hand passes. If 4♠ showed an undefined good hand, it would be impossible to respond to it after ...4♠-pass.

You could just about play 4♠ as either a heart raise or a strong hand with diamonds, but it would still make the auction horrible - no Keycard, because you don't know what the suit is; no diamond cue-bids from either side, because 5♦ has to show a sign-off; more evaluation problems, because responder doesn't know what trumps are.

It's better to assign a single meaning to the cue-bid, and start with double or a jump on all other strong hands. The hand that cue-bids should be the one where opener would least like to hear a pass of a takeout double. That hand is a heart raise.

I agree that you should try to narrow down the meaning. But why hearts?
When in doubt I can stomach to defend after I made a takeout double of 3♠ with an eight card heart fit when I have a strong three suiter, if my partner happens to decide so.
But if I have strong freak hand I might not want to defend at all costs. A hand with a spade void and very long strong diamonds or (much less likely) an extreme two suiter in minor. A hand which was too strong to preempt just short of (or unsuitable for ) a 2♣ bid.
Besides if I am too strong for a 4♥ bid (unlikely) I can bid 4NT (RKB for hearts) or 5♥ (slam invitational, not asking for spade control when opponents preempt) over 3♠. I can also bid 4♠ and change the initial assessment of a long diamond suit and bid hearts later. but this is least likely and I could live with an agreement that says hearts is not an option when I cuebid.
But responder should always assume an independent diamond suit in this sequence - not hearts when partner cuebids above 4♥
There is no excuse to bid 5♥ as responder with a four card heart suit, when you have already made a negative double of 1♠.
I would Pass over Double (neutral, not encouraging) or bid 4NT with this hand over Pass.

Rainer Herrmann

[SteveMoe]

5♥/5♥
5♣ risks painting a control card we don't have.

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2012-December-02, 02:40, said:

The 4♠ has to have a meaning that works if the next hand passes. If 4♠ showed an undefined good hand, it would be impossible to respond to it after ...4♠-pass.

You could just about play 4♠ as either a heart raise or a strong hand with diamonds, but it would still make the auction horrible - no Keycard, because you don't know what the suit is; no diamond cue-bids from either side, because 5♦ has to show a sign-off; more evaluation problems, because responder doesn't know what trumps are.

It's better to assign a single meaning to the cue-bid, and start with double or a jump on all other strong hands. The hand that cue-bids should be the one where opener would least like to hear a pass of a takeout double. That hand is a heart raise.

I think you can play it as either, but have to respond as if it were diamonds. Opener bids 5♥ over 5♦, for instance, with ♠- ♥AQxx ♦AKxxx ♣Axxx and passes with long diamonds.

On the actual hand I would bid 5♣ if my queen were the king.