[zasanya]

N Dealer Both Vulnerable Swiss IMP Pairs

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N opened 2 Spades. You are East .
IF Your agreements with P are Dbl= take out 7 loser hand tolerance for other 3 suits.Advancer then uses Lebensohl
2NT=15-17 balanced may have 4 card major . P can use stayman to find out yr major.
3 of a suit Forcing for 1 round
3 of opponents suit = asking stopper
Leaping Michaels
Q.1) What would you bid with the above hand.
Q.2) Do you have some other agreements with your favourite partner? If yes Could you please describe them?

Thanks in adavance

[MrAce]

I know a lot of people have a NT overcall fobia with Ax in their suit, i don't.

I will reply this as PhilKing did in another topic which i liked

1- Do i have 15-17 hcp ? Check
2- Do i have a balanced hand ? Check
3- Do i have stopper in their suit ? Check

I bid 2NT

It may not be the best 2NT overcall, but alternative DBL or minor overcall or pass has more flaws than 2NT imo.

[mr1303]

I would double - if partner has Qxx I want the Ox to play NT rather than me. If partner bids clubs I pass.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Shouldn't Overcaller's 2NT be a bit stronger ?

Afterall:
-- you can't play in 3C ... since you play that's Stayman .
-- you can't play in 3D ... since you play that's new suit forcing.

With a DBL:
-- you can play in 3C/3D ( via Leb2Nt )... if pard is weak.

Regarding the ♥-suit, you will most likely play in at least game using either method with this hand.

[dbsboy]

I would dbl (what I would do as well if RHO opened 1♠). I think its most important to bring ♥ into picture when your hand is actually not so NT-ish. I do not consider Ax good enough to be a stopper for 2NT when I have other choices available.

[gszes]

i also use leb but have one tweak that is especially helpful
on hands like this. If p bids 2n (relay) i bid 3d to show a general
lack of tolerance for clubs. This shows some extra values but
not much and distribution/power is also limited by inability to use
leaping michaels.

If p bids 3c over my x i will trot out 3s and hope p can bid 3n because
we are probably in trouble if they cannot.

W/O my tweak to leb I have to admit to leaning toward 2n as the best
description of my hand.

[SteveMoe]

I'd double.
If partner is weak with ♣ then Lebensohl will land is in the right spot.
If advancer removes to a red suit over my ♣ puppet I will raise.
If advancer bid 3♠ I can bid 3N in comfort.

[ggwhiz]

I hate double........ but I hate everything except pass even worse.

[Codo]

X second choice pass.

[zasanya]

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This was the full hand , How should west proceed?
I may add here that i bid a wimpy 3nt. The hand was played on 42 tables with players ranging from national stars to LOLs . On 4 other tables the hand was played in 3 NT 2 tables played in 4H one in 4NT and one 2 Sx. As far as I could ascertain 2 S was bid only on these tables.Only 2 pairs reached 7 diamonds. One of them was the pair playing on the last table in this swiss pairs event.
Your comments much appreciated.

[the hog]

2NT is not a good bid as you only have Ax and not a real source of tricks. I would double with pass a second choice.

[SteveMoe]

Would seem that
2♠ - X - Pass - 3♠
Pass - 4♦ gets this aimed right...

[sfi]

SteveMoe, on 2012-December-02, 21:41, said:

Would seem that
2♠ - X - Pass - 3♠
Pass - 4♦ gets this aimed right...

Surely doubler bids 3nt at the second turn. Now the auction can continue 4C-4D to at least find out about the diamond fit, but without good agreements it's hard to reliably get to the grand. After all, it's not even clear you can ask for key cards anymore.

I suspect I would wind up in 6nt most of the time - on general values if nothing else.

[rmnka447]

I'd probably bid 2 NT with the hand. Although I can see why double is made by some folks.

After 2 NT showing 15-17/18 and a ♠ stopper, West should have no problem getting to slam. After checking on As at some point in the auction,6 NT should be pretty easy to bid. What your next bid is after 2 NT pretty much depends on what methods you employ over pard's 2 NT

But even after a double, slam should be reached. The right start should be 3 ♠. You have 18 HCP opposite at least an opening bid, so have to be looking at least 30+ points between the two hands. Game is assured and slam is possible if there are the right cards in doubler's hand.

[zasanya]

I must add here that most people play lebensohl after a weak 2 double.
In the version that I and my P play 3♠ would deny a ♠ stopper and confirm 4 card of ♥and Game Force.
So lebensohl was a liability here?

[rhm]

zasanya, on 2012-December-03, 00:15, said:

I must add here that most people play lebensohl after a weak 2 double.
In the version that I and my P play 3♠ would deny a ♠ stopper and confirm 4 card of ♥and Game Force.
So lebensohl was a liability here?

So if an immediate 3♠ response to a takeout double denies a ♠ stopper and confirms 4 card of ♥, what would 2NT followed by 3♠ show?
As a corollary doesn't that show a strong hand with either a ♠ stopper or a hand without 4 card of ♥ and a hand too strong to close shop with 3NT?

If you insist that a 3♠ response to a takeout double always guarantees 4 cards in hearts, whether delayed by 2NT or not, you have in deed no way of showing a strong hand without 4 cards in hearts.
I would not want to have such an agreement.

Rainer Herrmann

[sfi]

zasanya, on 2012-December-03, 00:15, said:

I must add here that most people play lebensohl after a weak 2 double.
In the version that I and my P play 3♠ would deny a ♠ stopper and confirm 4 card of ♥and Game Force.
So lebensohl was a liability here?

There is a lot to be said for the showing/denying a stopper when playing Lebensohl after a NT opening. Opener has some expectation of having a stopper, so checking for this is useful.

However, the same considerations do not apply when playing Lebensohl over a weak 2. Here there is no expectation that the doubler has a stopper, and no real expectation that 3NT is the default contract. It's better for either player to only bid 3NT when they hold the stopper, both for positional reasons and because it provides other options in the bidding.

There are a number of alternatives that make better use of the bids. My default suggestion when discussing this with a new partner is that using 2NT shows 4 of the other major. So 2NT then cue = 4 hearts and game values; 2NT then 3NT = 4 hearts and a spade stopper, and 2NT then 3H = invitational with exactly 4 hearts. Now the direct bids can show GF with 0-3 or 5+ hearts, to play without 4 hearts (but with a spade stopper), and 5+ hearts and invitational, respectively. Over either of the cue bids, partner can bid 3NT if they don't have a fit and have a spade stopper.

So yes, IMO the way you are playing Lebensohl here is a liability.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

zasanya, on 2012-December-03, 00:15, said:

I must add here that most people play lebensohl after a weak 2 double.
In the version that I and my P play 3♠ would deny a ♠ stopper and confirm 4 card of ♥and Game Force.
So lebensohl was a liability here?

P
Playing Leb, then a direct 3C or 3D would be forcing and ostensibly deny 4cards ♥ .....otherwise you would have bid Stayman ..... a slow 3NT .... showing a Sp-stop as well as 4 cards Hts .
Not having a 5 card minor is inconvenient, but with this strong 4 - 4 , I would bid the Diam first..... and 4C next if pard bid 3NT .
Here, however, pard bids 4D over your 3D .

4H! next is kickback ( surely pard has a Ht Ctrl at least for his bid. ) ?
I think I only reach 6D .