[inquiry]

flytoox, on Dec 14 2004, 11:21 AM, said:

suppose you raised pd to 3C, as I did here. The auction continues:

W N E S
1D 2C P 3C
4D 4H(1) 5D ??(2)

(1) What is pd doing?
(2) What do you bid now?

What is 4♥? I am going to assume 4♥ was a slam try rather than an offer to play hearts.

What do I bid now? You didn't give the vulnerability nor the type of game (imps, matchpoint, rubber, bam), which might be important here for some hands but not this one. I have a good club fit, I have an ACE of spades, and even my J9 doubleton in hearts might be useful. I am not prepared to say let's defend or let's bid slam, but I am prepared to cooperate. The ideal solution here is the forcing pass, and clearly after 4♥, whatever the conditions of contest, PASS must be forcing. Partner will know that I am willing to bid on or willing to defend, so he can look at his hand and decide.

Ben

[pclayton]

4♥ probably isn't a slam try. It shows a hand that is going to bid 5♣, with a concentration of values. Pard is transferring captaincy to you for the upcoming decision over 5♦. 6♣ sould be a make, or a cheap save.

Lo and behold, the opponents press on. Now double is 100% clear. You have a defensive trick in partner's non-suit, no help in partner's side suit and only 3 trump. Expect -2 or -3.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Dec 14 2004, 12:16 PM, said:

4♥ probably isn't a slam try. It shows a hand that is going to bid 5♣, with a concentration of values. Pard is transferring captaincy to you for the upcoming decision over 5♦. 6♣ sould be a make, or a cheap save.

Lo and behold, the opponents press on. Now double is 100% clear. You have a defensive trick in partner's non-suit, no help in partner's side suit and only 3 trump. Expect -2 or -3.

"4♥" Probably isn't a slam try.... so double.... Hmm... if 4♥ wasn't a slam try, I wonder what partner will do over 5♦ when I make a forcing pass. Oh, I know, he will double. If 4♥ WAS a slam try, I wonder what he will do over our "captaincy" based double? Oh, I know he will pass.

I am not willing to play 4♥ only as show my stuff bid. The reason why is partner will not be showing 5+hearts as he didn't use michaels... to me this is at least mildly slam invite.. AFTER ALL (if we defend) I WILL NOT BE ON LEAD SO IT CAN:T BE A LEAD DIRECTOR

IF you assume you know what your partner is doing, you had better be right if you double.

Let's give partner a few choice hands....

♠Kx ♥AQxx ♦x ♣AQJxxx

With opener in front of him, 6♣ should roll home on ♥ hook... If you double opposite this, your partner will pass... if you make a forcing pass, partenr will bid slam.

♠xx ♥AKx ♦xx ♣AQxxxx

Partner is going to wack five diamonds, but even if he passes, you do ok, as you were never making even 5♣.

♠Kx ♥KQTx ♦x ♣AJxxxx

Your partner is going to double 5♦ over your forcing pass and pass your double.

Ben

[whereagles]

Ben, you may be right, but we all know in practice pard will have some lousy 6-4

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Dec 14 2004, 01:11 PM, said:

Ben, you may be right, but we all know in practice pard will have some lousy 6-4

If partner has some lousy 6-4 (everyone really should play raptor where this isn't possible.. but I understand).. then he will double, and they will go down a few. Or if he had some REALLY LOUSY 6-4 he can pass...and they still go down because one because of my spade ace, but hey, +50 versus +100 for double, no big deal.

[pclayton]

I don't see why 4♥ should be a mild slam try opposite a single raise, any more than:

Pard.........RHO..........Me.........LHO
1♠.......2♣.......2♠.......4♣
4♦

should be.

Per Ben:

I am not willing to play 4♥ only as show my stuff bid. The reason why is partner will not be showing 5+hearts as he didn't use michaels... to me this is at least mildly slam invite.. AFTER ALL (if we defend) I WILL NOT BE ON LEAD SO IT CAN:T BE A LEAD DIRECTOR

I don't think I suggested 4♥ be a lead director. Its a fit bid.

IF you assume you know what your partner is doing, you had better be right if you double.

Let's give partner a few choice hands....

♠Kx ♥AQxx ♦x ♣AQJxxx

With opener in front of him, 6♣ should roll home on ♥ hook... If you double opposite this, your partner will pass... if you make a forcing pass, partenr will bid slam. [/COLOR]

Pretty specific hand. Good thing I have a doubleton heart and a 6th spade. I have no idea how he knows I have them with my quiet raise. Even then, many would double with this hand over 1♦. Would I make the 'forcing pass' with a 5th spade and ♥xxx?


♠xx ♥AKx ♦xx ♣AQxxxx

Partner is going to wack five diamonds, but even if he passes, you do ok, as you were never making even 5♣.

I think this hand has too many losers for any game suggestion, much less a 'mild slam invite'. My doubleton heart is luckily turning +100 into +300.


♠Kx ♥KQTx ♦x ♣AJxxxx

Your partner is going to double 5♦ over your forcing pass and pass your double.

Again; a mild slam try is a stretch. A fit bid is sensible. And if it is a fit bid, what is wrong with me doubling without a fit in the 2nd suit and only 3 trump?

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Dec 14 2004, 02:01 PM, said:

I don't see why 4♥ should be a mild slam try opposite a single raise, any more than:

Pard.........RHO..........Me.........LHO
1♠.......2♣.......2♠.......4♣
4♦

should be.

Per Ben:

I am not willing to play 4♥ only as show my stuff bid. The reason why is partner will not be showing 5+hearts as he didn't use michaels... to me this is at least mildly slam invite.. AFTER ALL (if we defend) I WILL NOT BE ON LEAD SO IT CAN:T BE A LEAD DIRECTOR

I don't think I suggested 4♥ be a lead director. Its a fit bid.

IF you assume you know what your partner is doing, you had better be right if you double.

Let's give partner a few choice hands....

♠Kx ♥AQxx ♦x ♣AQJxxx

With opener in front of him, 6♣ should roll home on ♥ hook... If you double opposite this, your partner will pass... if you make a forcing pass, partenr will bid slam. [/COLOR]

Pretty specific hand. Good thing I have a doubleton heart and a 6th spade. I have no idea how he knows I have them with my quiet raise. Even then, many would double with this hand over 1♦. Would I make the 'forcing pass' with a 5th spade and ♥xxx?


♠xx ♥AKx ♦xx ♣AQxxxx

Partner is going to wack five diamonds, but even if he passes, you do ok, as you were never making even 5♣.

I think this hand has too many losers for any game suggestion, much less a 'mild slam invite'. My doubleton heart is luckily turning +100 into +300.


♠Kx ♥KQTx ♦x ♣AJxxxx

Your partner is going to double 5♦ over your forcing pass and pass your double.

Again; a mild slam try is a stretch. A fit bid is sensible. And if it is a fit bid, what is wrong with me doubling without a fit in the 2nd suit and only 3 trump?

Well, for the three hands, I was trying to come up with the one I would bid 4♥ with (the first one), and some "values in hearts" hands that fit your REQUIREMENT for the heart bid that wasn't a slam try, but rather showing your "values" in hearts issue. If I didn't DRAW up the hand you would agree with, please, feel free to come up with the hand yourself, and tell me what your partner would do when you , make a forcing pass over the 5♦ with the hand you create.

As far as the "magic" hand when I make a forcing pass and partner bids the slam... Well, it was a forcing pass, yes? I had to have some reason to envision a possible slam or I would have doubled.. Imagine, for instance... Axxx Jxx xx Kxxx I would wack four five diamonds. After all, it was the doubleton heart and the long spades that were features that made me invite the slam. And if I had a better hand than the one I had, say, Axxxx x xxx Kxxx, I would have bid the slam myself. Of course, with any random collection including some queen and jacks, and/or bland distribution, I would double too.

But it is my belief here that if partner is not interested in 6♣, he should be bidding 4♥. With the last two hands I drew up, I would pass 4♦ and bid 5♣. However, I think you missunderstood my comment about lead directing, it really was relevant. While I play 4♥ as slam try if the person bidding it will be on lead, if his partner will be on lead, I not only would accept the bid as lead director, that is how I play it.

So while I am very fond of fit bids, I play fit jumps EVEN WITHOUT competivie bids by the opponents, as well as frequently use of fit nonjumps when they do compete, this just isn't an auction where I would use it.

[flytoox]

Perhaps it is time to show the full hand. Pd holds:
S: KX
H: A9XX
D: X
C: AQJXXX

Note that 6C is a very nice slam. Without RHO's 5D, I will cuebid 4S to cooperate and then we will reach 6C. After RHO's 5D, holding doubleton D, I am worried if I pass, pd will bid 6 even without D control. So I doubled 5D and Pd passed it.

A lot can be said about this hand.
1, Raising pd to 3C actually open the door to slam. If I bid 2s, then after LHO's 4D, it will be very difficult for us to bid a game, let alone slam. I think this shows how important it is to raise pd whenever you have a fit.

Of course, the better solution here is to play 3S as fit bid, which was pointed out at the table by srg502.

2, 4H should establish forcing pass. Many poster here have already pointed out it. And it perhaps should show slam interest, as Ben said here. Another point is I think 4H should imply D control. I didnot find this clue and made dbl at the table.
IN the range of 3C, my hand is excellent, so perhaps I should pass here.

3, What should 4N be here? After responder's limit bid (3C here), perhaps we should revise the response to 4N if it is RKC.

[junyi_zhu]

flytoox, on Dec 14 2004, 07:04 PM, said:

Perhaps it is time to show the full hand. Pd holds:
S: KX
H: A9XX
D: X
C: AQJXXX

Note that 6C is a very nice slam. Without RHO's 5D, I will cuebid 4S to cooperate and then we will reach 6C. After RHO's 5D, holding doubleton D, I am worried if I pass, pd will bid 6 even without D control. So I doubled 5D and Pd passed it.

A lot can be said about this hand.
1, Raising pd to 3C actually open the door to slam. If I bid 2s, then after LHO's 4D, it will be very difficult for us to bid a game, let alone slam. I think this shows how important it is to raise pd whenever you have a fit.

Of course, the better solution here is to play 3S as fit bid, which was pointed out at the table by srg502.

2, 4H should establish forcing pass. Many poster here have already pointed out it. And it perhaps should show slam interest, as Ben said here. Another point is I think 4H should imply D control. I didnot find this clue and made dbl at the table.
IN the range of 3C, my hand is excellent, so perhaps I should pass here.

3, What should 4N be here? After responder's limit bid (3C here), perhaps we should revise the response to 4N if it is RKC.

bridge is a game of spades, when you failed to show your 6 nice spades, it's just a crime. Now, You cuebid 4S and your partner would bid 6C? give me a break.
What if your hand is something like: SAQx Hxx Dxxxx CKxxx? or AQxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx? 6C? only when you hold 6 spades and your side may have a play in 6C which might not be cold. And once you bid 3C, you'd never be able to show your 6 spades.
So the sequence is just impossible and no sane player should bid 6C over a 4S cuebid here. So 3C is just completely a distortion of your hand. 3S is also bad. Fit showing jump shows a much better hand than this one, you can't really force to 4C, but still, 3S is better than 3C because at least it showed spades.
Also, if you bid 2S, your partner would have an easy 4H over 4D, how can you say you can hardly reach a game over 4D? it's just a piece of cake, man. Over that 4H, you can bid 5C to show your nice clubs and it's upto partner's judgement to bid 6C. And it's the only sane way to get there. Also, if you have some gadget, you can even bid 4NT over 4H as a last train bid to show some slam interest and partner would thus confidently bid 5N to let you pick the slam.

Also, 4H implies nothing except that you have some value in hearts and a great hand.
I don't buy the concept that 4H shows D control, it just doesn't make sense:
you can easily hold S- HAKxx Dxxx CAQJTxx to bid 4H over 4D, and that can be the
only way for you to find 6C: partner can easily hold SQJxx HQJxx Dx CKxxx . Also, 4H isn't even forcing in theory,
Otherwise, you gotta bid some unmakable 5C when 4H is the only makable contract:
SQxx HJxxx DAx Cxxxx
vs:
SJx HAKxx Dx CAKxxxx

[flytoox]

Junyi, there is no 5C available cos RHO bid 5D. I agree 2s is better than 3C, but here after 5D. What do you do?

Noboby says 4H is forcing. I agree it is passable. BUt many think it establishes forcing pass.

[junyi_zhu]

flytoox, on Dec 15 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

Junyi, there is no 5C available cos RHO bid 5D. I agree 2s is better than 3C, but here after 5D. What do you do?

Noboby says 4H is forcing. I agree it is passable. BUt many think it establishes forcing pass.

I am just talking about the sequence over 4D. Over 5D, pass is forcing for sure, but 2S bidder shouldn't pass. he should double it, because 6-2-2-3 shape isn't offensive oriented and you need specific high cards from partner to make 6C which isn't realistic. For example, if your partner holds: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx,
can he bid anything over your forcing pass? No, even 5S wouldn't be makable.
So you should just take the sure money, instead of dreaming of 6C. Bidding actually is quite an easy and straightforward thing if one does it straightforwardly.

[inquiry]

junyi_zhu, on Dec 15 2004, 01:35 PM, said:

flytoox, on Dec 15 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

Junyi, there is no 5C available cos RHO bid 5D. I agree 2s is better than 3C, but here after 5D. What do you do?

Noboby says 4H is forcing. I agree it is passable. BUt many think it establishes forcing pass.

I am just talking about the sequence over 4D. Over 5D, pass is forcing for sure, but 2S bidder shouldn't pass. he should double it, because 6-2-2-3 shape isn't offensive oriented and you need specific high cards from partner to make 6C which isn't realistic. For example, if your partner holds: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx,
can he bid anything over your forcing pass? No, even 5S wouldn't be makable.
So you should just take the sure money, instead of dreaming of 6C. Bidding actually is quite an easy and straightforward thing if one does it straightforwardly.

If you hold xx AKQx x AQJTxx and you had bid 4♥ over 4♦ and your partner makes a forcing pass over 5♦ when it gets back to you, you have no choice but to double. It was never the hand with spades that bids the slam, he just makes a forcing pass rather than mastermind the hand. This hand has nothing more than it as already shown, and no reason to suspect after his 4♥ bid (I would not bid 4♥ with this hand), his partner can have three of the follwoing four cards: ♣k. ♠AK, and ♦A, for iwth three of those, he would have bid 6♣ after the 4♥ bid.

But you are right, bidding 3♣ (what robson says support with support), is wrong with this spade suit. But you are wrong about the fit jump to 3♠. Your partner rates to have 6♣ for his overcall (on average), so you have a nine card club fit, so a fit jump to 3♠ gets all your suits into play, and imo is the correct bid earlier on the hand. The auction is impossible as given.

ben

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Dec 15 2004, 05:56 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Dec 15 2004, 01:35 PM, said:

flytoox, on Dec 15 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

Junyi, there is no 5C available cos RHO bid 5D. I agree 2s is better than 3C, but here after 5D. What do you do?

Noboby says 4H is forcing. I agree it is passable. BUt many think it establishes forcing pass.

I am just talking about the sequence over 4D. Over 5D, pass is forcing for sure, but 2S bidder shouldn't pass. he should double it, because 6-2-2-3 shape isn't offensive oriented and you need specific high cards from partner to make 6C which isn't realistic. For example, if your partner holds: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx,
can he bid anything over your forcing pass? No, even 5S wouldn't be makable.
So you should just take the sure money, instead of dreaming of 6C. Bidding actually is quite an easy and straightforward thing if one does it straightforwardly.

If you hold xx AKQx x AQJTxx and you had bid 4♥ over 4♦ and your partner makes a forcing pass over 5♦ when it gets back to you, you have no choice but to double. It was never the hand with spades that bids the slam, he just makes a forcing pass rather than mastermind the hand. This hand has nothing more than it as already shown, and no reason to suspect after his 4♥ bid (I would not bid 4♥ with this hand), his partner can have three of the follwoing four cards: ♣k. ♠AK, and ♦A, for iwth three of those, he would have bid 6♣ after the 4♥ bid.

But you are right, bidding 3♣ (what robson says support with support), is wrong with this spade suit. But you are wrong about the fit jump to 3♠. Your partner rates to have 6♣ for his overcall (on average), so you have a nine card club fit, so a fit jump to 3♠ gets all your suits into play, and imo is the correct bid earlier on the hand. The auction is impossible as given.

ben

What does a forcing pass mean here? It guarantees a fit in either H/S or C and shows doubts on whether to bid or not. All it cares about is whether partner has some extra, not as how partner's HCP distributed. In that sense, a forcing pass by 2S bidder is day dreaming. He need HA, SKx, 6 good clubs, D shortness to make a slam. That's just too much. You've seen the four hands and claimed that 2S bidder should make a forcing pass, it doesn't make sense actually, because it just requires too much from partner to give you a play in 6C, and 6C is not even cold in that sense. So why do you play specific card from partner? You can easily hold SAQJTxxx Hxxx Dxx Cx, Ok, now you just want to know whether 5S is good, but you can't! Because partner doubles with such a great hand: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQTxxx, 6S would be makable upon a finesse and 5S is almost cold , and you defend 5D -2 x. I don't call it a bidding success. Change this hand to SKx HAxxx Dx CAQTxxx, D lead and H switch, oops, now even 5S is very very shaky, whose fault? Now you see how the forcing pass is so ridiculous here. You don't really have the right card strength to make it at 5 level so you should just double and hope for the best instead of daydreaming miracle 6C.
Another case, you hold SAQxxx Hxx Dxx CKxxx, and again, this hand looks so nice, so you make a forcing pass, Opps, Partner bid something with SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx, and you need S 3-3 to make 6C!

Another hand, SAKxxx Hxx Dxx CKxxx, and again, you make a forcing pass,
and partner doubles with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, you miss the ice cold 6C, whose fault? If you double with the second hand and bid something with the first one, it's just losing bridge.

For 3S jumpshift part. It's just an huge overbid. You want a minimum partner raise you to 4S with something like Sxxx HAx Dxx CAQJxxx? Even 3S would be rather high, if
sp is 3-1, and you force this hand to play 4S or 4C no matter what. It's just losing bridge. Your plan of 2S is that you'd pass partner's 3S or 3C rebid, correct 2NT rebid to 3C and that's it. Then you claimed, because partner often hold 6 clubs,
so you can force to 4C. Even the "law" promoter Larry Cohen wouldn't say a 9 card fit would be enough for players to play at 4 level, and sometimes, you may play a 8 card fit at 4 level, Sxx HAxxx Dxx CAQJTx, good luck!

[inquiry]

Quote

What does a forcing pass mean here? It guarantees a fit in either H/S or C and shows doubts on whether to bid or not. All it cares about is whether partner has some extra, not as how partner's HCP distributed. In that sense, a forcing pass by 2S bidder is day dreaming.

There was NO 2♠ bidder... the forcing pass above was on the auction provided to us by the original poster WHO RAISED CLUBS... So, the FIT IS ALREADY assured, it is in clubs.. BID AND RAISED.... Your change the subject doesnt' help. I already agreed that raising clubs instead of bidding spades was wrong (although I would have have used fit jump instead of 3♣ raise... But anyway, all this blath above is nonsensee.. there WAS NO SPADE bidder....

Quote

He need HA, SKx, 6 good clubs, D shortness to make a slam. That's just too much. You've seen the four hands and claimed that 2S bidder should make a forcing pass, it doesn't make sense actually, because it just requires too much from partner to give you a play in 6C, and 6C is not even cold in that sense.

I have never, not once, discussed that a 2♠ bid makes a pass of 5♦ forcing. As I have not discussed that auction. In fact, if I HAD BID 2♠ (which I would not have), I would double 5♦ because 2♠ is a huge overbid on this hand if it was forcing (as I play it). So I would double here to warn partner not to bid on... but that is not the issue. You raise a strawman with your arguements, try to stick the auction...

(1D)-2C-(P)-3C
(4D)-4H-(5D)-? <<--- this is the forcing pass situaion. Advancer is very good for his mild 3♣ bid, especially if you play unassuming cue-bid here. For the auction so far, he has a very good hand. The club king, the spade ace with legnth, the heart J9 (even the nine could be useful) doubleton. This hand is too good to double, which could show the same type of hand but with a club more, and spade Q-fifth, not Ace sixth.

Quote

So why do you play specific card from partner?  You can easily hold SAQJTxxx Hxxx Dxx Cx,

Give me a break.. I never bid spades and in the post we are discussing the hand RAISED clubs.. if I hold that hand, send me to an insane asylum immediately. The remainder of your aruging with yourself is deleted, but I will turn to the actual hand held... imagine partner with the hand he had ....

SKx HAxxx Dx CAQTxxx,

The bidding with the fit jump makes getting to 6♣ a piece of cake. The same fit jump you have commented negatively on. The same fit jump to 3♠ which isn't even forcing, so you can play any black suit contract between 3♠ and 7♠. So as for you comment about the following hand... .

Quote

For 3S jumpshift part. It's just an huge overbid. You want a minimum partner raise you to 4S with something like Sxxx HAx Dxx CAQJxxx?  Even 3S would be rather high, if sp is 3-1, and you force this hand to play 4S or 4C no matter what. It's just losing bridge. 

I don't play fit jumps like you do obviously. My 3♠ fit jump is not forcing (well fit jump for a major to 4 of a minor are forcing to the major, fit jump for the minor into a major can be passed). Partner would pass the jump to 3♠, since i made a non-forcing bid and he is looking at only 11 hcp. If I had forcing hand with spades and clubs I would bid a forcing 2♠ and then show clubs later. It is true that I can't be sure partner has 6 clubs and even with six clubs, 9 clubs is only "law protected" at the three, but if I bid 2♠ there is no way to stop in 3♣ and 2♠ horribly distorts my hand. While 3♠ might end the auction, and finds our best fit right away, while limiting my hand.

As for partner holding this hand...

Quote

Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, you miss the ice cold 6C, whose fault? If you double with the second hand and bid something with the first one, it's just losing bridge.

If I made a fit jump, he would invite with 4♥, and then I would pass over five diamonds both times with AQxxx xx xx Kxxx and I would wack five diamonds with the hand with Axxxxx xx xx Kxx. Partner with doubleton diamonds would double, with spade support and slam interest will pull to 5♠, and with the hand withyour xx AKQx x AQJxxx would bid the slam opposite both forcing passes....

Everyone who wants to bid 3♠ as fit jump with this hand, you have my blessing and I think you are right. And if you raise clubs instead, over 5♦ (after partner bids 4♥), the forcing pass is also right. And to junyi_zhu if you want to disagree with these statements, fine.. but keep the two separate... the forcing pass on this auction was AFTER a raise... not a HUGE overbid of 2♠ that you espouse. Anyone who makes the extremely light 2♠ on this and then makes a forcing pass at 5♦ has no clue as to how to play bridge, but then no one but you has argued for that auction (well you argued against it, but no one I can see has suggested it in the first place).

ben

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Dec 15 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

Quote

What does a forcing pass mean here? It guarantees a fit in either H/S or C and shows doubts on whether to bid or not. All it cares about is whether partner has some extra, not as how partner's HCP distributed. In that sense, a forcing pass by 2S bidder is day dreaming.

There was NO 2♠ bidder... the forcing pass above was on the auction provided to us by the original poster WHO RAISED CLUBS... So, the FIT IS ALREADY assured, it is in clubs.. BID AND RAISED.... Your change the subject doesnt' help. I already agreed that raising clubs instead of bidding spades was wrong (although I would have have used fit jump instead of 3♣ raise... But anyway, all this blath above is nonsensee.. there WAS NO SPADE bidder....

Quote

He need HA, SKx, 6 good clubs, D shortness to make a slam. That's just too much. You've seen the four hands and claimed that 2S bidder should make a forcing pass, it doesn't make sense actually, because it just requires too much from partner to give you a play in 6C, and 6C is not even cold in that sense.

I have never, not once, discussed that a 2♠ bid makes a pass of 5♦ forcing. As I have not discussed that auction. In fact, if I HAD BID 2♠ (which I would not have), I would double 5♦ because 2♠ is a huge overbid on this hand if it was forcing (as I play it). So I would double here to warn partner not to bid on... but that is not the issue. You raise a strawman with your arguements, try to stick the auction...

(1D)-2C-(P)-3C
(4D)-4H-(5D)-? <<--- this is the forcing pass situaion. Advancer is very good for his mild 3♣ bid, especially if you play unassuming cue-bid here. For the auction so far, he has a very good hand. The club king, the spade ace with legnth, the heart J9 (even the nine could be useful) doubleton. This hand is too good to double, which could show the same type of hand but with a club more, and spade Q-fifth, not Ace sixth.

Quote

So why do you play specific card from partner?  You can easily hold SAQJTxxx Hxxx Dxx Cx,

Give me a break.. I never bid spades and in the post we are discussing the hand RAISED clubs.. if I hold that hand, send me to an insane asylum immediately. The remainder of your aruging with yourself is deleted, but I will turn to the actual hand held... imagine partner with the hand he had ....

SKx HAxxx Dx CAQTxxx,

The bidding with the fit jump makes getting to 6♣ a piece of cake. The same fit jump you have commented negatively on. The same fit jump to 3♠ which isn't even forcing, so you can play any black suit contract between 3♠ and 7♠. So as for you comment about the following hand... .

Quote

For 3S jumpshift part. It's just an huge overbid. You want a minimum partner raise you to 4S with something like Sxxx HAx Dxx CAQJxxx?  Even 3S would be rather high, if sp is 3-1, and you force this hand to play 4S or 4C no matter what. It's just losing bridge. 

I don't play fit jumps like you do obviously. My 3♠ fit jump is not forcing (well fit jump for a major to 4 of a minor are forcing to the major, fit jump for the minor into a major can be passed). Partner would pass the jump to 3♠, since i made a non-forcing bid and he is looking at only 11 hcp. If I had forcing hand with spades and clubs I would bid a forcing 2♠ and then show clubs later. It is true that I can't be sure partner has 6 clubs and even with six clubs, 9 clubs is only "law protected" at the three, but if I bid 2♠ there is no way to stop in 3♣ and 2♠ horribly distorts my hand. While 3♠ might end the auction, and finds our best fit right away, while limiting my hand.

As for partner holding this hand...

Quote

Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, you miss the ice cold 6C, whose fault? If you double with the second hand and bid something with the first one, it's just losing bridge.

If I made a fit jump, he would invite with 4♥, and then I would pass over five diamonds both times with AQxxx xx xx Kxxx and I would wack five diamonds with the hand with Axxxxx xx xx Kxx. Partner with doubleton diamonds would double, with spade support and slam interest will pull to 5♠, and with the hand withyour xx AKQx x AQJxxx would bid the slam opposite both forcing passes....

Everyone who wants to bid 3♠ as fit jump with this hand, you have my blessing and I think you are right. And if you raise clubs instead, over 5♦ (after partner bids 4♥), the forcing pass is also right. And to junyi_zhu if you want to disagree with these statements, fine.. but keep the two separate... the forcing pass on this auction was AFTER a raise... not a HUGE overbid of 2♠ that you espouse. Anyone who makes the extremely light 2♠ on this and then makes a forcing pass at 5♦ has no clue as to how to play bridge, but then no one but you has argued for that auction (well you argued against it, but no one I can see has suggested it in the first place).

ben

Even after a 3C raise, it's still a huge overbid to make a forcing pass at 5 level. You have no filler in hearts, you have only 3 clubs, the shape is 6-2-2-3 and you still want to make a forcing pass and hope to play a slam. Give me a break. So what would you do if you hold SAKxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx?(3C can be an underbid, but it doesn't really matter here) You would double 5D? And then find partner to hold xx AKQx Dx CAQJxxx? And you think SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx is better than Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, that's your claim. And this claim isn't true even using your favorate zar system. Also, if partner can't act with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, what do you really expect partner to bid over your forcing pass? how about this: SQx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx? You still can't make 6C and that's totally 18 HCP two queens more than the actual hand. Now I believe you get the point, passing is just a huge overbid and it's just not realistic.

For the fit jump part, your 3S isn't what most consider as a fit jump, you may call it as a fit jump, but few would really think fit jump's definition as yours. And you still get high more times than 2S bidders.

[inquiry]

junyi_zhu, on Dec 15 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

Even after a 3C raise, it's still a huge overbid to make a forcing pass at 5 level.

Ok.. at least you are discussing the hand/auction as it should be discussed now.

So you have, in a sense, raised the question, what does a forcing pass show. Interesting, in all your discussion you have said what it doesn't show (the hands I think you can have for the bid, btw), but now shown what you would make a forcing pass with. I will show some more hands, and address your hands for yet a thrid time.

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You have no filler in hearts, you have only 3 clubs, the shape is 6-2-2-3 and you still want to make a forcing pass and hope to play a slam. Give me a break.

I don't need heart fillers. For me, partner was not suggesting hearts as a place to play, and since if we defend against 5♦, partner can not be making lead directing bid since he will be on lead, 4♥ was a blantant slam try.

My hand is offensive for a slam try.. I have a doubleton heart, which is perfect if partners hearts are AKx(x) or AQ(x) since the heart hook will be on. I have the spade ace, a card partner can not have counted on because of my raise, and I have the club king, an offensive card with virtually no defensive value at all. My hand is not quite so offensive as to force to slam (if I had a singleton heart, I would bid 6♣, but it is too offensive to give up and bury my head in the sand with a double. I will draw up a variety of hands that I double with below.

Quote

So what would you do if you hold SAKxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx?(3C can be an underbid, but it doesn't really matter here). You would double 5D? 

3♣ would be a huge underbid. With that hand, I would have bid 2♦, unassuming cue-bid. The avaliabiliyt of this 2♦ cue-bid limits the stregnth of the 3♣ bid.. which makes my hand all the more wonderful for parnters slam try. So the rest of you auction is moot... so let's change it to I bid 2♦ next hand bids 4♦, and partner bids 4♥ and fellow in front of me bids 5♦. Now I have already shown a good hand and a club fit. To pass with this hand (given that I promised at least this much) would generally be a poor option. On the other hand, I have both spade stoppers and partner can not know this, and will be looking at spade losers. Still my hand is all offensive (spade AK probably good for both, but club king is offensive). So with this hand I would still make a forcing pass. So if partner had xx AKQx Dx CAQJxxx he will bid the slam.

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And you think SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx is better than Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, that's your claim. And this claim isn't true even using your favorate zar system.

Well now you have changed horses again, partner can not have that hand if I have the spade AKxx... as there is only one king of spades in the deck. So let's go back to the original hand, if partner has that hand, over the forcing pass, he will carry on. IF he had a related hand, say, S-Qx H-Axxx D-x C-AQJxxx he is not bidding slam opposite forcing pass after 2♦ unassuming cue bid (your second hand) or the three club raise and pass here.. matter of fact, with this hand, he is not even making the 4♥ cue-bid opposite the 3♣ raise, as partner can't have enough stuff for slam.

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Also, if partner can't act with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, what do you really expect partner to bid over your forcing pass?

If partner has that hand, he will bid the slam over all forcing passes after the 2♦ cue-bid and 4♥ bid by him, and if he has that hand, he will not even invite slam opposite a 3♣ raise as his partner can not have three of the missing four key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) or he would have made an unassuming cue-bid instead of direct raise.

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how about this: SQx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx? You still can't make 6C and that's totally 18 HCP two queens more than the actual hand. Now I believe you get the point, passing is just a huge overbid and it's just not realistic.

With this hand (with or without the spade queen) he would bid slam if partner bid 2♦ first (not raised). However, now partner still need three of the four missing key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) to make slam. For instance, give partner any two of those cards, slam can't be made, and since partner can't have three... you still don't make the 4♥ bid, you simply bid 5♣. Only opposite the unassuming cue-bid would you make a slam try with this hand.

Quote

For the fit jump part, your 3S isn't what most consider as a fit jump, you may call it as a fit jump, but few would really think fit jump's definition as yours. And you still get high more times than 2S bidders.

You can play 2♠ if and only if you play 2♠ as not-forcing. I happen not to play that as non-forcing, so for me bidding 2♠ is never an option here. To play 2♠ as non-forcing is, in my opinion inferior. Here is what Robson/Segal say about auction after partner overcalls and your RHO passes...

(1) Direct raises are always fairly weak/preemptive. (which is why forcing pass on this hand after parnters 4♥ slam try is right. This is a great hand for 3♣

(2) All non-game jumps into new suits show fits (as well as a jump to 4♥ opposite a 1♠ overcall, or to 5♣ opposite a diamond overcall).

(3) The cheapest cue-bid always shows a sound raise. Opposite a one-level overcall it denies four trumps with a fair ODR.

(4) A jump-cue to the three-level shows a mixed four-card (plus) raise - including (1♣)-1♦-(pass)-3♣.

(5) 2NT is natural, except that opposite a 1♥/1♠ overcall it shows a ‘limit raise or better’ with four trumps -much as opposite a 1♥/1♠ opening.

(6) A jump-cue to the four-level (including, say, (1♠)-2♦-(pass)-3♠) is a splinter-jump.

Next to your issue is the fit jump forcing. The answer here is no, at least not for me. I understand the theory of showing your fit so partner can decide how high to bid, and in support of a major, I play fit jump as forcing to that major. But for minors (After a minor suit opening or overcall at the one or two level), my jump in a major is invitational and not forcing. The reason is clear to me.. if it was forcing we would have to get at least one level higher even when we have the major fit and no matter how weak my partner is. So I play 1C-2H as fit jump, non-forcing with hearts and clubs. I play 1C-(1D)-2H the same way. And I play these jumps to the three level the same way. If I have a hand that wants to force with the balck suits I would bid a forcing 1/2♠ and then raise clubs.

Ben

[HeartA]

Very interesting, a hand drew so much discussion. To tell you the truth, I am the one who held that hand, playing with flytoox (we were long time friends, but rarely had chance to play together, less than 50 boards).

While my pd only raised to 3C, I didn't have the ambition for slam. My 4H was to play, in case he had 4 reasonable ♥ (it is quite possible, isn't it? He had SIX ♠ heading with Ace and yet didn't mention it at all). After 2C was raised to 3C, my hand got appreciated (slam asked too much, game was quite possible): ♠K in good position, ♥ had Ace and stiff ♦.

In my method, 2S after 2C was at best invitational. With the real holding, it opened the door to possible slam: I had ♠K support, ♥ and ♦ controls, we could count winners....

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Dec 15 2004, 08:56 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Dec 15 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

Even after a 3C raise, it's still a huge overbid to make a forcing pass at 5 level.

Ok.. at least you are discussing the hand/auction as it should be discussed now.

So you have, in a sense, raised the question, what does a forcing pass show. Interesting, in all your discussion you have said what it doesn't show (the hands I think you can have for the bid, btw), but now shown what you would make a forcing pass with. I will show some more hands, and address your hands for yet a thrid time.

Quote

You have no filler in hearts, you have only 3 clubs, the shape is 6-2-2-3 and you still want to make a forcing pass and hope to play a slam. Give me a break.

I don't need heart fillers. For me, partner was not suggesting hearts as a place to play, and since if we defend against 5♦, partner can not be making lead directing bid since he will be on lead, 4♥ was a blantant slam try.

My hand is offensive for a slam try.. I have a doubleton heart, which is perfect if partners hearts are AKx(x) or AQ(x) since the heart hook will be on. I have the spade ace, a card partner can not have counted on because of my raise, and I have the club king, an offensive card with virtually no defensive value at all. My hand is not quite so offensive as to force to slam (if I had a singleton heart, I would bid 6♣, but it is too offensive to give up and bury my head in the sand with a double. I will draw up a variety of hands that I double with below.

Quote

So what would you do if you hold SAKxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx?(3C can be an underbid, but it doesn't really matter here). You would double 5D? 

3♣ would be a huge underbid. With that hand, I would have bid 2♦, unassuming cue-bid. The avaliabiliyt of this 2♦ cue-bid limits the stregnth of the 3♣ bid.. which makes my hand all the more wonderful for parnters slam try. So the rest of you auction is moot... so let's change it to I bid 2♦ next hand bids 4♦, and partner bids 4♥ and fellow in front of me bids 5♦. Now I have already shown a good hand and a club fit. To pass with this hand (given that I promised at least this much) would generally be a poor option. On the other hand, I have both spade stoppers and partner can not know this, and will be looking at spade losers. Still my hand is all offensive (spade AK probably good for both, but club king is offensive). So with this hand I would still make a forcing pass. So if partner had xx AKQx Dx CAQJxxx he will bid the slam.

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And you think SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx is better than Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, that's your claim. And this claim isn't true even using your favorate zar system.

Well now you have changed horses again, partner can not have that hand if I have the spade AKxx... as there is only one king of spades in the deck. So let's go back to the original hand, if partner has that hand, over the forcing pass, he will carry on. IF he had a related hand, say, S-Qx H-Axxx D-x C-AQJxxx he is not bidding slam opposite forcing pass after 2♦ unassuming cue bid (your second hand) or the three club raise and pass here.. matter of fact, with this hand, he is not even making the 4♥ cue-bid opposite the 3♣ raise, as partner can't have enough stuff for slam.

Quote

Also, if partner can't act with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, what do you really expect partner to bid over your forcing pass?

If partner has that hand, he will bid the slam over all forcing passes after the 2♦ cue-bid and 4♥ bid by him, and if he has that hand, he will not even invite slam opposite a 3♣ raise as his partner can not have three of the missing four key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) or he would have made an unassuming cue-bid instead of direct raise.

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how about this: SQx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx? You still can't make 6C and that's totally 18 HCP two queens more than the actual hand. Now I believe you get the point, passing is just a huge overbid and it's just not realistic.

With this hand (with or without the spade queen) he would bid slam if partner bid 2♦ first (not raised). However, now partner still need three of the four missing key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) to make slam. For instance, give partner any two of those cards, slam can't be made, and since partner can't have three... you still don't make the 4♥ bid, you simply bid 5♣. Only opposite the unassuming cue-bid would you make a slam try with this hand.

Quote

For the fit jump part, your 3S isn't what most consider as a fit jump, you may call it as a fit jump, but few would really think fit jump's definition as yours. And you still get high more times than 2S bidders.

You can play 2♠ if and only if you play 2♠ as not-forcing. I happen not to play that as non-forcing, so for me bidding 2♠ is never an option here. To play 2♠ as non-forcing is, in my opinion inferior. Here is what Robson/Segal say about auction after partner overcalls and your RHO passes...

(1) Direct raises are always fairly weak/preemptive. (which is why forcing pass on this hand after parnters 4♥ slam try is right. This is a great hand for 3♣

(2) All non-game jumps into new suits show fits (as well as a jump to 4♥ opposite a 1♠ overcall, or to 5♣ opposite a diamond overcall).

(3) The cheapest cue-bid always shows a sound raise. Opposite a one-level overcall it denies four trumps with a fair ODR.

(4) A jump-cue to the three-level shows a mixed four-card (plus) raise - including (1♣)-1♦-(pass)-3♣.

(5) 2NT is natural, except that opposite a 1♥/1♠ overcall it shows a ‘limit raise or better’ with four trumps -much as opposite a 1♥/1♠ opening.

(6) A jump-cue to the four-level (including, say, (1♠)-2♦-(pass)-3♠) is a splinter-jump.

Next to your issue is the fit jump forcing. The answer here is no, at least not for me. I understand the theory of showing your fit so partner can decide how high to bid, and in support of a major, I play fit jump as forcing to that major. But for minors (After a minor suit opening or overcall at the one or two level), my jump in a major is invitational and not forcing. The reason is clear to me.. if it was forcing we would have to get at least one level higher even when we have the major fit and no matter how weak my partner is. So I play 1C-2H as fit jump, non-forcing with hearts and clubs. I play 1C-(1D)-2H the same way. And I play these jumps to the three level the same way. If I have a hand that wants to force with the balck suits I would bid a forcing 1/2♠ and then raise clubs.

Ben

Ok, since you don't like common sense and like your bidding system. Let's talk about your system then.
According to what you said, what would you bid with
SAxx Hxxxxx Dxx CKxx? you bid 2H? 3H? You have only one bid, 3C!
By no means 3C denies a major yet. It just denies good and long major suits
and you still may have a major suit, right?
If this is true, it's just nonsense to play 4H is forcing because you may just belong
to 4H. Over 3C, it's extremely rare to construct a hand that you want to
try slam. So a slam going forcing 4H doesn't really make sense. That means you have to play 5C when 4H is cold sometimes. A forcing pass by 3C raiser at 5 level only means one thing: he has a good fit in hearts and trying for 5H. Now it's just as clear as crystal how you should bid, you bid 5H with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQxxxx, yes, you may miss 6H,
but you at least find the right suit to play. Slam bidding is always of low priority
in this kind of competitve auctions. And 4H should be treated as natural, not as what
you claimed, a slam try. And it's just ridiculous to assume partner holds 6 spades
and bid a slam with Kx Axxx x AQJxxx and a forcing pass is just totally wrong I believe.
Also, you should double 5D with the hand above over partner's forcing pass, because you need H 2-2 to make 5H and 5D double is sure thing.

Ok, now I have given you what a forcing pass should show.

The second issue, 2S is really a bid that both forcing or nonforcing players can play.
As long as you play some straightforward method of 2S: you bid 2NT/3C/3S with
a minimum and bid something else with extra. 2S can allow you to play at 3C when you have no fit and that's a super gain.

[inquiry]

[quote name='junyi_zhu' date='Dec 15 2004, 08:53 PM'] Ok, since you don't like common sense and like your bidding system. Let's talk about your system then. [/quote]
Well, if you are going to talk about my system, 4[he] will never be to play, because I play raptor (as most reader here know, I have been called a raptor fanatic) and will never bid 2[cl] when holding a major suit.

So instead of talking about my system (I don't feel comfortable with you telling me what I bid anyway), let's call it a generic system between intellegent players playing together for a first or second time.


[quote]
According to what you said, what would you bid with
SAxx Hxxxxx Dxx CKxx? you bid 2H? 3H? You have only one bid, 3C![/quote]

Yes I bid 3[cl]

[quote]By no means 3C denies a major yet. It just denies good and long major suits and you still may have a major suit, right?[/quote]

Not one worth mentioning. It is true that I can have a four card or five card major.

[quote]If this is true, it's just nonsense to play 4H is forcing because you may just belong  to 4H. [/quote]

Well, as you can see, playing raptor, 4[he] simply can't be to play (that is my system). However, even not playing my system, 4[he] can't be to play. The 3[cl] raise was, as I stated above and in accordance with Robson/Segal "fairly weak/preemptive." If partner has good enough hearts to suggest them for the first time at the four level, and enough value to force to 5[cl] opposite this fairly weak/preemptive 3[cl] raise, he would have had a hand good enough to double intially, and then bid 3[cl], a gosh type hand. Thus, 4[he], a new suit at the four level is not to play. This is despite what heartA says the bid meant at the table.

[quote]Over 3C, it's extremely rare to construct a hand that you want to
try slam. So a slam going forcing 4H doesn't really make sense. That means you have to play 5C when 4H is cold sometimes. [/quote]

I would say it the other way around, over 3[cl] it is extremely rare that overcaller having found a club fit will want to stop exactly in four hearts presuming a fit could be found, but still willing to bid FIVE CLUBS if a heart fit is not found. On the other hand, if partner is going to FORCE to five clubs anyway, he will be close to six clubs, after all a weak/preemptive bid can cover a lot of ranges... from about four hcp up to a good eight with some distribution. I think your arguement that to not have a slam investigating bid really doesn't make sense... i mean after all, you were going to five clubs anyway, why worry about stopping on a dime in four hearts (and what kind of hearts would your parnter need to pass anyway, and if he has hearts and clubs and if you had enough for fvie clubs without a heart fit, there you are again in teh six club range anyway).

[quote]A forcing pass by 3C raiser at 5 level only means one thing: he has a good fit in hearts and trying for 5H.  [/quote]

Utter nonsense. Trumps are [cl] and only [cl]. A forcing pass shows a hand that is not offensive enough to accept the slam try, but too offensive (and not strongly defensive for the previous bid) to warn overcaller not to bid on. After all, partner may have been fully thinking he was going to slam and was looking for grand slam for all we know.

[quote]Now it's just as clear as crystal how you should bid, you bid 5H with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQxxxx, yes, you may miss 6H, but you at least find the right suit to play. Slam bidding is always of low priority in this kind of competitve auctions. [/quote]

Utter nonsense... but at least if you bid 5[he] your partner will have the good common sense to put you in 6[cl] to avoid down a ton. With this hand, I would just bid 5[cl] over 4[di] never, ever bidding 4[he], as I said before, partner can't have three of the missing four missing essential cards. When they bid 5[di] we double them.

[quote]And 4H should be treated as natural, not as what you claimed, a slam try. And it's just ridiculous to assume partner holds 6 spades and bid a slam with Kx Axxx x AQJxxx and a forcing pass is just totally wrong I believe. [/quote]

As for the six spades, I wouldn't raise to 3[cl], I would make a 3[sp] fit jump, and slam would be bid without a problem. However, with this hand, I wouldn;t make a 4[he] slam try either (give me the heart Queen or King and I would have) if all my partner could do is bid 3[cl]. But if I did make bid four [he] with this one and partner made a forcing pass, I would double five diamonds not bid the slam. If partenr had the magic hand (spade Ace, heart stilff, and club king to length) he would have bid slam after the 4[he] try.

[quote]Also, you should double 5D with the hand above over partner's forcing pass, because you need H 2-2 to make 5H and 5D double is sure thing. [/quote]

I am never playing hearts, so this is a non-starter.. and I will double five diamonds as I said above.

[quote]Ok, now I have given you what a forcing pass should show.[/quote]

In lala land. :-)

[quote]The second issue, 2S is really a bid that both forcing or nonforcing players can play. As long as you play some straightforward method of 2S: you bid 2NT/3C/3S with a minimum and bid something else with extra. 2S can allow you to play at 3C when you have no fit and that's a super gain. [/quote]

We have a fit.... so I assume you mean no [sp] fit. Do you really think they are going to let you play 3[cl]? Are you sure your partner will understand that 2[sp] was a horrible hand. I don't mind 2[sp] as not forcing, if it is clearly an unambigiously not forcing. But for me, it is 100% forcing.

I think I am going to stop this... we have both written a lot, as have others.. Phil thinks 4[he] just set defense if they bid 5[cl], I think it is a slam try, and not trying to get in hearts, you and heartA think it is an attempt to play exaclty 4[he]. Let people choose the method they like best and play it. I have nothing else to add at this point.

[pclayton]

Here's my take on the latest go-around:

1. 4♥ is fine as a fit bid, and not a suggestion to play, unless partner has unusual, unexpected length in the suit (haven't we all played in a strain we started out fit-bidding? I know have a few times). And as Ben states, it also sets up a forcing situation over 5♦. While its very very unlikely we have slam, its important that we are either bidding or doubling.

2. Whats a forcing pass over 5♦ look like? It should show a hand ONLY interested in 5 HEARTS. I think its much for a hand making a forcing pass to only be interested in ♣'s, because of the initial single raise. Ergo, the actual hand would not qualify. I know that we didn't 'raise' to 3♣, but bid 2♠.

The discussion about the forcing pass at the 5 level has transgressed from the initial misbid (raise). To me, a forcing pass looks like: xxxx. KJxx, xx, Axx; saying: I'm not sure about 5♥, but if you bid it you won't be disappointed. Contrast this with 2 other hands: Axxxx, xxx, Qx, Kxx which is a clear double (or the actual hand for that matter), or: xxx, Kxxxx, x , Axxx which is a clear 5♥ call.