[Fluffy]

♠9
♥A5
♦A1052
♣Q98632

1♠-2♣
3♣-3♦
3♠-??

2♣ nat, not GF, but never with less than 10 HCP
3♣ is forcing althou not neccesarilly strong, I hope this is standard in sayc and other non 2/1 systems

[MrAce]

It is important, imo, whether the 3♣ showed 4 or 3 cards, depending on how many clubs did 2♣ show i guess. Also it is important what our 3♦ showed. If it showed a real suit, which i doubt, then pd knows we have 5+ clubs now.

Assuming 2♣ promised 4+ only, which makes 3♣ showing 4+ ...

Opener has an unbalanced hand, semi balanced hands he would bid either NT with heart stopper or bid 3♥ without one. On the other hand he did not splinter in one of the red suits, which is auto in 2/1 but i don't know if it is in non 2/1 systems with minimum hands.

Seems like he is much more likely to hold a 6-4 in blacks and 2-1 or 3-0 in red suits. Even at mp i would probably not settle with 3NT and bid 4♣ planning to stop in 5♣ not 4NT if we decide we are not gonna play slam.

You don't need a rocket scientist to see that 5 or 6 clubs will be cold where 3NT would not have a play, suppose pd holds

AKxxxx
xx
x
KJxx

slam is cold, 3NT does not have a play

AKxxxx
x
xx
KJxx

5cl cold, 3NT has no play. Slam is not good on this hand but i would rather be in slam than 3NT.

As i said i am not sure in this system opener was allowed to splinter with those hands as in it is auto playing 2/1.

In my examples you can change clubs to AJxx, then slam will be much better and when/if it goes down you will get much better score than 3NT bidders. If you change and make his clubs AKxx and make his spades KQxxxx, again 3NT will have no play and 5 or 6 ♣ will depend on his stiff or the lead. If pd has AKxx ♣ and A ♠ 3NT will make of course but slam will be cold.

I am having hard time to construct hands where 3NT can possibly be better than 5 or 6 ♣ if pd is not doing something weird. I mean we have to bid something, whatever it is except than 3NT imo, depending on our choice or agreement of investigation bids at 4 level.

[Fluffy]

partner has 4 clubs at least, partner could not splinter below 3NT

[Trinidad]

It depends entirely on how you view this auction.

I see it as:
1♠: "I have spades"
- 2♣: "I have clubs"
3♣: "I have those too"
- 3♦: "Nice, let's see if we can get to 3NT. I have diamonds stopped, but I am worried about hearts (otherwise I would have bid 3NT)."
3♠: I) "I don't have a good heart stop, but I am still interested in 3NT. Do you have anything in hearts?" or II) "I have a good hand with 6+ spades and 4+ clubs and I will bid again."

Now my 3NT will tell:
- 3NT: "To I): Yes, I do have something in hearts. and to II) I am eager to see your bid."

Rik

[Vampyr]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-24, 04:32, said:

3♣ is forcing althou not neccesarilly strong, I hope this is standard in sayc and other non 2/1 systems

Sorry to be a little off-topic, but I am very curious as to what partner bids with a minimum hand and a club fit.

To what level is 2♣ forcing? And 3♣?

[MrAce]

Trinidad, on 2012-November-24, 10:12, said:

3♠: I) "I don't have a good heart stop, but I am still interested in 3NT. Do you have anything in hearts?" or II) "I have a good hand with 6+ spades and 4+ clubs and I will bid again."

Rik

This is where i disagree with you. Imho ;

3♠: " I don't have a ♥ stop, and i am interested more in playing ♠(a single Q or doubleton may do it even if it is a 5-2 fit), after 3♦ last place i want to play is 3NT, or i would just bid 3♥ and ask if you have stopper"

[Codo]

I would bid 4 ♣if this is not passable- I guess it is not, but I am not sure about your system. If it is, I need to bid something stronger, maybe 4 ♥.

3 NT is not in my picture anymore. Partner is 5+/4+ in the black suits. My goal is 5 to 6 clubs...

[Fluffy]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-24, 11:13, said:

Sorry to be a little off-topic, but I am very curious as to what partner bids with a minimum hand and a club fit.

To what level is 2♣ forcing? And 3♣?

2 clubs forcing till 2NT, or 2M if responder is able to bid it next round, from what I have gathered on the forums, this is not the UK style where 2♣ can be 9+ or even 8+.
3 clubs is game forcing for most, this gets you to game with 23 high but at least you have a fit. The only sane way to play slams is to have this bid as forcing and overbid a little to games.

[Fluffy]

Trinidad, on 2012-November-24, 10:12, said:

It depends entirely on how you view this auction.

I see it as:
1♠: "I have spades"
- 2♣: "I have clubs"
3♣: "I have those too"
- 3♦: "Nice, let's see if we can get to 3NT. I have diamonds stopped, but I am worried about hearts (otherwise I would have bid 3NT)."
3♠: I) "I don't have a good heart stop, but I am still interested in 3NT. Do you have anything in hearts?" or II) "I have a good hand with 6+ spades and 4+ clubs and I will bid again."

Now my 3NT will tell:
- 3NT: "To I): Yes, I do have something in hearts. and to II) I am eager to see your bid."

Rik

3 spades shows spades, 6 cards or strong 5, interest in 4♠. 3 hearts would be a last train to 3NT bid with half a stopper. 4th suit by opener is normally natural, but with a fit already stablished on a minor it is just semi-nat.

3♦ shows values and induces partner to assume heart weakness, but it could also (rarely) be too strong to bid 3NT in wich case anything in hearts is possible.

[bigbenvic]

I bid 4H, I'm hoping to get partner to realize that I have red aces and am interested in slam. If he has AK clubs A spades and , and a 5422 shape or better we should have play for 6.

I'm a minimum hand and it needs close to perfect cards, but I am ever hopefull.

Over 4S I'll bid 5C and partner will hopefully wonder why I can cue twice and hear the best (cheapest) cue available over 4H and not go further. I must hold a hand that is interested but flawed, ie trump weakness and with AK of trumps he'll bid on.

I don't expect a huge hand from him 3c is passable if 2c isn't GF, however a minimum 6-4 with A♠ AK♣ will also give me chances.

I also stretch too often for minor slams as I feel too many players settle for a safe game, usually in 3NT rather than find out about 6 of a minor. SO I may be overcooking things with my 10 count. I'll take all the blame if we are too high.

[Fluffy]

partner had

♠AKQ10x
♥xxx
♦x
♣AK10x

I tried 4♣ and I suspect he though 4♣ coud be non forcing because partner bid an absurd 5♣ over it. 640 surprisingly was worth 32% MPs beating some pairs playing in spades or 6NT, 1390 was 85% and 2140 98%.

Winners of the tournament had this incredible bidding:

1♠-1NT
2♣-6♣

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-24, 04:32, said:

3♣ is forcing althou not neccesarilly strong, I hope this is standard in sayc and other non 2/1 systems

Not in Forum D, which means almost certainly not in SEF either. Here a direct 3♣ raise shows extras and all minimums without a red suit start with a 2♠ rebid (forcing). Opener will then show the club support if they get the opportunity on the third round. I thought natural methods came in 2 styles, either 3♣ is GF with extras and weaker hands rebid the major (as above) or 3♣ is minimum and stronger hands have to find some alternative forcing call. I cannot imagine a method where a minimum opening raises to 3♣ but this is also forcing.