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What do you call here? 4NT would be 2 suited take out, 5C would show a fit as a passed hand, but not as an unpassed hand. Or what about a simple 5D?
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From both sides of the table - part II
#1
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Posted 2012-November-23, 08:51
What do you call here? 4NT would be 2 suited take out, 5C would show a fit as a passed hand, but not as an unpassed hand. Or what about a simple 5D?
#2
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Posted 2012-November-23, 09:09
mr1303, on 2012-November-23, 08:51, said:
What do you call here? 4NT would be 2 suited take out, 5C would show a fit as a passed hand, but not as an unpassed hand. Or what about a simple 5D?
By 2 suited T/O do you mean 2 places to play or the other two suits ?
If the former, I'm quite happy bidding it.
Since you don't play 5♣ as fit, your only other bids are 5♦ or 6♦. If I knew for sure that partner had no wasted values in hearts, I'd bid 6, but since I don't, I'm endplayed into bidding 5♦ if 4N is other 2 suits.
I presume X is pens for you (it isn't for me).
#3
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Posted 2012-November-23, 09:16
No, double would not be pure penalty, but it would be less take out than 4NT. Double would be cards, but partner wouldn't expect a heart void and 4 card diamond support.
#4
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Posted 2012-November-23, 10:21
I would just bid 5♦. 4N takeout should in my opinion be say 4=6 minors. Why look for a club fit with only 5 of them when we are known to hold a 9 or 10 card diamond fit?
That changes if 4N is seen as two places with play with slam interest but I don't understand why that would be, especially at a vulnerability where saving is often a factor, and we may be hoping to save 300 points after they double us.
Anyway, I don't see why this hand would want to suggest slam unless he's seen the other part of the post. The opps have a big heart fit (often 10 or 11 cards on this auction) so why would we cater to partner having a spade void? And our diamonds aren't especially long or robust.
Edit: the posts suggest that N-S have had an argument about whose fault it is that they missed an easy slam....in fact an 'easy' grand. No doubt in my mind: it is S's but hardly the worst 'miss' of all time.
That changes if 4N is seen as two places with play with slam interest but I don't understand why that would be, especially at a vulnerability where saving is often a factor, and we may be hoping to save 300 points after they double us.
Anyway, I don't see why this hand would want to suggest slam unless he's seen the other part of the post. The opps have a big heart fit (often 10 or 11 cards on this auction) so why would we cater to partner having a spade void? And our diamonds aren't especially long or robust.
Edit: the posts suggest that N-S have had an argument about whose fault it is that they missed an easy slam....in fact an 'easy' grand. No doubt in my mind: it is S's but hardly the worst 'miss' of all time.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#5
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Posted 2012-November-23, 13:25
Bid 4NT just in case.
It may help attract a club lead if we defend and may gain in other ways. If partner bids 5♣ I can bid 5♦, for instance. The knowledge that we have a diamond raise with clubs as well may be the key to the hand.
It may help attract a club lead if we defend and may gain in other ways. If partner bids 5♣ I can bid 5♦, for instance. The knowledge that we have a diamond raise with clubs as well may be the key to the hand.
#6
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Posted 2012-November-23, 17:35
mikeh, on 2012-November-23, 10:21, said:
I would just bid 5♦. 4N takeout should in my opinion be say 4=6 minors. Why look for a club fit with only 5 of them when we are known to hold a 9 or 10 card diamond fit?
That changes if 4N is seen as two places with play with slam interest but I don't understand why that would be, especially at a vulnerability where saving is often a factor, and we may be hoping to save 300 points after they double us.
Anyway, I don't see why this hand would want to suggest slam unless he's seen the other part of the post. The opps have a big heart fit (often 10 or 11 cards on this auction) so why would we cater to partner having a spade void? And our diamonds aren't especially long or robust.
Edit: the posts suggest that N-S have had an argument about whose fault it is that they missed an easy slam....in fact an 'easy' grand. No doubt in my mind: it is S's but hardly the worst 'miss' of all time.
That changes if 4N is seen as two places with play with slam interest but I don't understand why that would be, especially at a vulnerability where saving is often a factor, and we may be hoping to save 300 points after they double us.
Anyway, I don't see why this hand would want to suggest slam unless he's seen the other part of the post. The opps have a big heart fit (often 10 or 11 cards on this auction) so why would we cater to partner having a spade void? And our diamonds aren't especially long or robust.
Edit: the posts suggest that N-S have had an argument about whose fault it is that they missed an easy slam....in fact an 'easy' grand. No doubt in my mind: it is S's but hardly the worst 'miss' of all time.
Well on the actual hand, partner might get the idea that your values are in clubs rather than spades, which is exactly what he needs to know.
#7
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Posted 2012-November-23, 17:51
we are told 4nt is a two suited takeout...not clubs and diamonds.
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Posted 2012-November-23, 18:24
PhilKing, on 2012-November-23, 13:25, said:
Bid 4NT just in case.
It may help attract a club lead if we defend and may gain in other ways. If partner bids 5♣ I can bid 5♦, for instance. The knowledge that we have a diamond raise with clubs as well may be the key to the hand.
It may help attract a club lead if we defend and may gain in other ways. If partner bids 5♣ I can bid 5♦, for instance. The knowledge that we have a diamond raise with clubs as well may be the key to the hand.
I think 4NT-5♣;5♦ shows a slam try in diamonds, without saying anything specific about any side suit. Maybe we should do that anyway - Ax xx AKxxxx Qxx would be enough for a grand slam.
This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-November-23, 18:25
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2012-November-23, 18:51
gnasher, on 2012-November-23, 18:24, said:
I think 4NT-5♣;5♦ shows a slam try in diamonds, without saying anything specific about any side suit. Maybe we should do that anyway - Ax xx AKxxxx Qxx would be enough for a grand slam.
As the overcalling side, I think these sequences are best played as descriptive rather than a general try, since we rarely make slam on power alone - we need a perfect fit.
#10
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Posted 2012-November-25, 21:05
Change my system ;-) but for practicality I'd bid 5♦ and give up on the perfect slam.
Does anyone know which type of hand is more common? ie a hand that wants to bid 5♣ to show a NAT suit Vs a hand that has a diamond fit and a reason to mention the club suit. Lead direction or slam try or information for pards to decide what to do over 5♥
Does anyone know which type of hand is more common? ie a hand that wants to bid 5♣ to show a NAT suit Vs a hand that has a diamond fit and a reason to mention the club suit. Lead direction or slam try or information for pards to decide what to do over 5♥
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