[Lord Molyb]

Is there a bidding system out there that uses opening passes to show an opening hand, and any non-pass opening shows less than an opening bid?
Is this sort of system not allowed? Or are there major disadvantages that I'm missing?

[Mbodell]

What you describe is called a forcing pass system and there are a number of such systems. It is arguably reasonably effective. It is kind of a continuation of a strong club system where the weakest call possible is the one with all the good hands, and other bids are quite limited. The major downsides are you need some fert bids that let you get out when you have nothing and the fact that these opening systems are banned by many organizations (like the ACBL).

[Zelandakh]

The very first system I played regularly against was a strong pass system. I found it lots of fun. There is some pretty good theory behind them but most jurisdictions ban them in almost all events which restricts their popularity enormously. If you are interested in them then a good book to try to get hold of would be "Introduction to Weak Opening Systems" by Lukasz Slawinski and Stanislaw Ruminski. You can also find a wuick summary of many of the popular methods here and there are other websites about with many alternative possibilities if you do a search.

[Kungsgeten]

There are some different kinds of pass-systems. Strong pass, where a pass shows 13+ hcp may be the most well known. Also pass as 15+ hcp (or even stronger) is not unheard of. Carotti (which later developed into magic diamond) used a "semi-forcing" pass showing 12-16 hcp when unbalanced or 15-17 hcp when balanced. All of the above have to use a "fert" opening.

I currently play a forcing pass system where pass shows either 0-7 hcp or 17+ hcp. I think this idea works out pretty good. Our 1♣ opening shows 12-16 unbal or 15-17 bal, and the rest of the openings show 8-11 hcp (1NT is 12-14 though).

[Vampyr]

Kungsgeten, on 2012-November-21, 19:27, said:

I currently play a forcing pass system where pass shows either 0-7 hcp or 17+ hcp.

Where do you play? I ask because FP systems are not widely permitted.

[rbforster]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-21, 19:57, said:

Where do you play? I ask because FP systems are not widely permitted.

My reading of the ABCL rules suggest that a two-way pass would not be illegal on its face (only forcing passes are banned). Opening hands in the 8-16 hcp range naturally is also allowed. The only tricky part might be whether ones favorite conventions could be used in sequences like P-1X-?. My suggestion would actually to have a lighter strong pass option, because for GCC it's hard to open sub-8 hcp hands in third seat, and you might not want to pass out 7 vs 17+. Weak openings at the two level in 3rd and 4th seat could cover some of the weaker hands too.

[Vampyr]

rbforster, on 2012-November-21, 21:19, said:

My reading of the ABCL rules suggest that a two-way pass would not be illegal on its face (only forcing passes are banned).

It seems to me that a system where Pass could be 17+ and is not forcing would be unplayable.

If Kungsgeten's Pass is forcing, which I suspect it is, the system would require 3rd- and 4th-hand openings of 0+. So I am very doubtful that this system is allowed in the ACBL; or, for that matter, the EBU. But there are plenty of more liberal NBOs around.

[rbforster]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-21, 21:52, said:

It seems to me that a system where Pass could be 17+ and is not forcing would be unplayable.

Not ideal, but for those stuck with ABCL rules, not passing opposite a 17+ possible Pass is also unplayable (by law). I'm sure I could put together a GCC two-way pass system that wasn't unreasonable - remember you only have to pass a few hands systematically to make the opening pass legal/non-forcing.

If after Pass you bid with 0-7 2X weak with any 5+ suit, and open all your 8+ hands naturally somehow at the one level in 3rd/4th, that only leaves you passing a balanced 0-7. This is mostly bad when partner has a big balanced hand and you miss 3N, so maybe you put the strong balanced hands into 1C or 2N openers instead of passing those. Now you only have opener's strong unbalanced hands to deal with opposite your 0-7 balanced, and often the opponents will bid here or preempt (since they're unbalanced too), and this gives partner a second call. Since you're balanced, raising or bidding NT with 2 card support for partners suit should make for pretty easy competitive auctions.

[Vampyr]

rbforster, on 2012-November-21, 22:38, said:

Not ideal, but for those stuck with ABCL rules, not passing opposite a 17+ possible Pass is also unplayable (by law). I'm sure I could put together a GCC two-way pass system that wasn't unreasonable - remember you only have to pass a few hands systematically to make the opening pass legal/non-forcing.

If after Pass you bid with 0-7 2X weak with any 5+ suit, and open all your 8+ hands naturally somehow at the one level in 3rd/4th, that only leaves you passing a balanced 0-7. This is mostly bad when partner has a big balanced hand and you miss 3N, so maybe you put the strong balanced hands into 1C or 2N openers instead of passing those. Now you only have opener's strong unbalanced hands to deal with opposite your 0-7 balanced, and often the opponents will bid here or preempt (since they're unbalanced too), and this gives partner a second call. Since you're balanced, raising or bidding NT with 2 card support for partners suit should make for pretty easy competitive auctions.

Whatever. Kungsgeten has not yet revealed his jurisdiction, but somehow I doubt it is ACBL.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-21, 23:55, said:

Whatever. Kungsgeten has not yet revealed his jurisdiction, but somehow I doubt it is ACBL.

Judging by his post in the 2♦ thread:

Kungsgeten, on 2012-November-21, 03:45, said:

I like 2M as canapé (also known as Velociraptor?). 2M shows exactly 4 cards in the major, and a 5+ minor, weak. 2♦ is weak in a major (mini-multi), and I like to play 2♣ as game foring or 20-21 bal or weak 2 in diamonds.

If a strong variant is included in the multi I like to play 2NT as weak with both minors OR both majors (some play it as weak with 5-5 in any suits).

In Sweden, 2♦ as multi and about 5-9 hcp and 2M as "intermediate two bid" with 10-13 hcp is popular. I play this in some partnerships and it works pretty well. The ugly hands are those with 6 hearts and 4 spades in the 10-13 range. If you open 1♥ and partner responds 1NT you're too weak for a reverse and too weak for 2♥ (which promise 14-16 hcp).

At my club a pair is playing their own gadget; a kind of modified Wilkosz/multi hand. 2♦ shows a Muiderberg hand; 5 cards in a major and 4+ cards in a minor OR a strong NT. 2M is then an ordinary weak two and 2NT is weak with minors or majors.

the jurisdiction is probably Sweden. It seems from this that the Swedish regulations are even more open than the ANZAC ones.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-22, 02:21, said:

the jurisdiction is probably Sweden. It seems from this that the Swedish regulations are even more open than the ANZAC ones.

Well found. Thanks.

[Kungsgeten]

Now it has already been cleared up, but yeah I live and play in Sweden. I haven't read the ACBL / GCC / EBU rules, but I know that forcing pass is forbidden in most places.

In Sweden, no conventions are "forbidden" by law (local clubs are allowed to make such restrictions, but seldom do so). Instead every opening bid are given a point value, depending on how hard it is to defend against. How many points a bid get depends on what it is showing. This isn't totally fair at all times, but allows for a lot of different systems. All other conventions (answers, interfering etc), except opening bids, aren't regulated at all. A pass can NEVER get any points, but the answers do (if the pass isn't always strong, 15+ or better). At club level a total count of 7 points is allowed. SAYC would actually get 2 points: 1♣ and 1♦ would get 1 point each since they only promise 3 cards in the suit bid, and because of this they also need to be alerted.

In our pass system, the opening bids and points look like this:
pass: 0-7 or 17+ (0 points)
1♣: 12-16 unbal or 15-17 bal, opposite a pass it shows 0-7 or 17+ instead (3 points, which is max for a 1♣ opening)
1♦: 4+♥, not 4333 or 4432, may have longer minor, 8-11 hcp / 8-16 hcp opposite pass (1 point, since it shows 4+ cards in another suit)
1♥: 4+♠, as above (1 point)
1♠: 8-11 hcp balanced hand, no 5 card major. 8-13 opposite pass. (2 points, since it promises a balanced hand)
1NT: 12-14 hcp. 14-17 opposite pass (0 points, since its natural. Any balanced NT opening is 0 points)
2♣♦: 5+ suit, no 4 card major, 8-11 unbal. 8-16 opposite pass (0 points, natural)
2♥♠: 5 cards and 5+ in a minor, 8-11 hcp. 8-16 opposite pass (0 points, since it shows 4+ cards in the suit bid)
2NT: 15-17 hcp and at least 5-5 in minors (0 points since its strong)
3♣: 12-14 hcp and at least 5-5 in minors (0 points, same reason as 2♥♠)

This system has 7 points, which is usually max. A pass system with a fert bid would be hard to fit into the regulation rules, since fert bids (except 1♣) gets a lot of points. A typical system is Carotti where pass showed 12-16 / 15-17, 1♣ showed 17+ or 11-13 bal (3 points) and 1♦ showed 0-7 hcp (5 points).

[Cascade]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-22, 02:21, said:

Judging by his post in the 2♦ thread:


the jurisdiction is probably Sweden. It seems from this that the Swedish regulations are even more open than the ANZAC ones.

ANZAC regulations are not very open. At some time in the past they were open. I have heard of a pair winning the NZ Pairs playing Forcing Pass. But for as long as I have played their have been reasonably prohibitive regulations. 20 years ago I played Forcing Pass for about six months before we gave up because it was too difficult maintaining two systems and the opportunities were too few to play Forcing Pass. Basically the regulations are that Forcing Pass is only allowed in Open level events where you play eight or more boards against the opponents and you lose seating rights, may have to lodge systems before hand and the opponents are allowed written defenses at the table.

[RunemPard]

Yes...we have quite a bit of home grown systems here in Sweden...some clubs have more than others.

Most clubs do not care what you open. I suppose if most of the club constantly complained about a system, the club administrators may not allow it, but I have never seen any bids not allowed from the clubs I have played at. It can be a little annoying if you are playing against them for the first time, and have no defense, but most pairs who care enough will put together one for the next match.

We played a team match the other week against a pair who opens 2♦ with semi-balanced or marmic hands (weak). This is rather difficult to bid against, but I plan to work on a defense for future meetings against them.

IMO, whining because another pair has thought up, or is using a method that is effective, accurate, or hard to bid against is silly. Most pairs will allow you time to prepare a defense against it in a team match, and at pairs it is typically 2 boards.

I always hear about how the ACBL does not allow numerous bids because of their destructive nature...I see this as a poor and boring stand. Bidding should be allowed to evolve and be different at many levels of play. I find it fun and interesting to play against bids I have never seen used before. Playing at a club where every round you are playing against 5542, 15-17nt, STR 2C, WK 2DHS is just...kinda blah to me.

But then again...maybe I am more patient about abnormal bids because of my youth...

[blackshoe]

Item number one under "prohibited" on the ACBL's General Convention Chart is "Conventions and/or agreements whose primary purpose is to destroy the opponents’ methods". I've always wondered why this doesn't include all preempts. I suppose it's similar to the case I discovered playing with a local player a while back. He kept insisting "all jumps are weak". Over and over again. Then, in the middle of a competitive auction, he jumped to 4♣, a suit we (he, iirc) had previously bid. I passed. "Whyinhell did you pass?" sez he. "Because 'all jumps are weak'" I replied. "NOT THAT ONE!" he thundered.

[Vampyr]

Kungsgeten, would you mind posting a bit more about your system -- particularly the responses to your Pass? It looks like fun and I would like to try it at the local club.

[the hog]

What you describe is a strong pass system. Some people call these systems forcing pass, but that is incorrect; while the pass is nominally forcing, I have seen and passed opener's passes.
I can think of at least 10 such systems, mostly of Polish, NZ and Australian origin. There are also some medium pass systems that have been played.
They virtually no longer exist because administrators have legislated them out of existence. Though they are relatively easy to play against, some governing bodies are afraid that these systems make life too difficult for the sponsors of national teams.

[Kungsgeten]

Sure Vampyr, here's the continuation we use after pass:

1C: 0-7 or 17+, forcing
1D: 8-16 hcp, 4+H (not 4333 or 4432) may have longer minor. 1H is a relay, we play it as 17+ or weak and balanced, but it may be played as 17+ always. 1S is natural non-forcing, 1NT+ is weak transfers.
1H: Same as 1D above, but with spades and 1S is relay.
1S: 8-13 balanced. 1NT is 17+ relay. 2 in a suit is to play with at 5+ suit. Pass is weak balanced or spades. 2NT is 18-20 balanced which doesn't want to relay.
1N: 14-17 balanced. NT-system on, but all invitational bids are natural showing 17+.
2m: 5+m, no 4 card major, 8-16 unbal. Next step is a relay and strong.
These bids should cover all hands, but we use our other openings described earlier too.

pass-1C;
1D: 0-7 hcp. Pass is now 0-7, others as below.
1H: 20+ hcp or 21+ balanced.
1S: 4+S, may have longer side suit, 17-19 unbal.
1NT: 18-20 bal
2CDH: Natural unbal, denying 4 spades, 17-19 hcp.
2S: 5-5 majors, 17-19
2NT: 5-5 minors, 17-19
3X: Long and good suit, about 9 tricks.

pass-1C; 1H (also pass-1C; 1D-1H);
1S: 0-4 any or 5-7 balanced
1NT+: Transfer, 5-7 hcp
2S: 5-7, 5-5 minors
2NT: 5-7, 5-5 majors

pass-1C; 1S (also pass-1C; 1D-1S);
1NT: relay, partner bids 2C with 5+ spades, otherwise side suit. 2S shows 4 spades and 5+ clubs. Over 2C the supposedly weak hand can bid 2D which is forcing and asks for side suit or 6+ spades.
2X: Non forcing
2NT+: Natural 17+ which doesn't want to bid 1NT. Forcing to slam

[Vampyr]

Thank you very much. Now I just need to find a partner willing to give it a whirl...

[helene_t]

wackojack and Keith (don't remember the bbo name of Keith, flycycle or something like that) played something very similar to kungsgeten's system for a while