[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I'd like to know some info on specific KS contested auctions.

I am especially interested in contested 1m opener.

Because of the use of the weak 1NT opener, KS 1m opener is either a natural unbalanced opener with 4+ (usually 5+) in the minor OR a balanced hand, either 15-17 or 18-19 (ok, these range may be nudged, but this is not the issue of this post).

If opps are silent, this is easy to describe by opener (rebid NT at the appropriate level or the 1-2 suiter naturally).

However, let us assume the following:

1♣-(1♠)-pass-(2♠)
?

Now what should I bid with:

Unbalanced hands, minimum opener with good distribution VS genuine reverse

1) x-Axxx-xxx-AKJxx
2) x-AKxx-Kxx-AQJxx

15-17 balanced with and without 4H

3) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-QJx
4) KJT-Axxx-KTxx-KQ

18-19 balanced with and without 4H

5) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-AJx
6) KJT-QTxx-AKTx-KQ

THE WHOLE POINT IS: WHAT DOES IT MEAN IF I DOUBLE?
STRENGTH, EVEN BALANCED (AND WHICH RANGE, 15-17 OR 18-19) OR SHAPE (THE OTHER MAJOR) ?

[Flame]

Since i made a mistake here, ill edit it.
Imo not much different the sayc.
Double would be T.O (usually hearts)
A question should be if this should show extra, the common answer is yes so with minimum opening (like hand 1) you suppose to pass (true because of the short spade suit there is an extra resson to double), with hand two you oviously have enough, actually more then enough.
With balance hand even 15-17 you have to pass, so hand 3 is a pass.
But hand 4 (including both in the same category is what confused me) you have a double.
hands 5-6 again hand 6 is an easy double, with hand 5 you can bid 2nt naturally (which is the meaning with a pick up partner), but there are better uses to 2nt either as a good bad , or my preference to show a 6-4 hand. if 2nt is not natural i will double with those 18-19 balanced.

This post has been edited by Flame: 2004-December-01, 06:57

[Chamaco]

Flame, on Dec 1 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

With hands 1-2 (you made a mistake in 2)

What is the mistake in 2 ?
I voluntarily added the red suit Kings and changed the clubs holding vs hand 1, to make it a genuine reverse hand, but not superstrong.

[Chamaco]

Flame, on Dec 1 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

With hands 1-2 (you made a mistake in 2) you can either think your good shape is  enough extra and double, or you pass and hope partner will double.

No, pard will not double.
If I am short in spades, pard will have some length and probably quite weak, he will rarely double.

With such a shape it is only opener who will have the choice to suggest whether competing or not (responder is unlikely to have either hcp or distribution requirements).
What's more, we all know that holding any reasonable distribution, we should bend over backwards to balance (or prebalance) before selling out at the 2 level when opps have a fit, so passing, even with hand 1, does not look like a good policy.

Note that even holding hand 1, (weak), this is one classical case of "prebalancing" vs opps bidding and raising (OBAR bids).

Prebalancing is usually good, but here it overloads the double with many possible meanings. This is the issue I am trying to clarify.

Also note that bidding 2NT with the 18-19 balanced is looking for trouble.
Usually, in "std" methods, the 18-19 hand is shown with a "power double", but still, this overloads the double even more.

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Dec 1 2004, 05:56 AM, said:

However, let us assume the following:

1♣-(1♠)-pass-(2♠)
?

Now what should I bid with:

Unbalanced hands, minimum opener with good distribution VS genuine reverse

1) x-Axxx-xxx-AKJxx
2) x-AKxx-Kxx-AQJxx

15-17 balanced with and without 4H

3) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-QJx
4) KJT-Axxx-KTxx-KQ

18-19 balanced with and without 4H

5) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-AJx
6) KJT-QTxx-AKTx-KQ

1 = Pass.. the risk versus rewards of bidding hiere are too great. Surely your parnter didn't support clubs, didn't make a negative double. So chance of him bidding yoru three card small diamond suit is too great, and hte hand doesn't belong to you. At matchpoints, not vul, I might risk a double. Give me a fourth diamond and one less heart (x-Axx-xxxx-AKJxx) and I will double despite minimum values.

2 Double = takeout. With Kxx of diamonds and AKxx of hearts, I have to compete. Here you have to know here if your partners 2NT is scrambling (with both red suits) or lebehnshol. There is logic for each option after this direct seat double.

3 and 4 = Pass. If it is passed to partner, he will know I have a strong 1NT opening bid on this auction due to his spade shortness.. and will know if it is right to balance or not

5 and 6 = bid 1NT... to strong for a standad 1NT opener.

[Chamaco]

Quote

3 and 4 = Pass. If it is passed to partner, he will know I have a strong 1NT opening bid on this auction due to his spade shortness.. and will know if it is right to balance or not

That is true, so let me try to construct the "worse possible hand" ?
I do not know whether the following is good enough:

AQ-KJT-KJTx-AJxx

Now pard is not marked with shortness, I have no 4 card hearts suit but I still have extras...
How do I show them after their 2♠ raise ?
If I do not differentiate this from a similar shaped 15-17 (e.g. AQ-KJT-JTxx-AJxx), responder will have trouble taking the right decision in the balancing seat...

inquiry, on Dec 1 2004, 01:59 PM, said:

5 and 6 = bid 1NT... to strong for a standad 1NT opener.

Can't bid 1NT: those evil opps have raised to 2♠ and that would not be legal!

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Dec 1 2004, 10:14 AM, said:

Quote

3 and 4 = Pass. If it is passed to partner, he will know I have a strong 1NT opening bid on this auction due to his spade shortness.. and will know if it is right to balance or not

That is true, so let me try to construct the "worse possible hand ?
I do not know whether the following is good enough:

AQ-KJTx-KJTxx-AJxx

Now pard is not marked with shortness, I have no 4 card hearts suit but I still have extras...
How do I show them after their 2♠ raise ?

Right you are to point out below my rebid problem where I suggested an insufficient bid. Ok, fair enough. However on this hand, I would just go ahead and ask for redeal, as I seem to have not one, but two extra cards. Add to that I opened 1♣ with five diamonds, so I am really not sure what I would bid.

inquiry, on Dec 1 2004, 01:59 PM, said:

5 and 6 = bid 1NT... to strong for a standad 1NT opener.
Can't bid 1NT: those evil opps have raised to 2♠ and that would not be legal! 

I will talk to fred, and have him fix it so only I CAN make a insufficient rebid 1NT... why let such a good rebid go to waste? Until then on five and six, I would have opened 1♦ on bpth and I will pass over 2♠ on both. Oh well. Double is out, and I play good/bad 2NT here so that is out too, even when playing KS.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Dec 1 2004, 02:24 PM, said:

Right you are to point out below my rebid problem where I suggested an insufficient bid. Ok, fair enough. However on this hand, I would just go ahead and ask for redeal, as I seem to have not one, but two extra cards. Add to that I opened 1♣ with five diamonds, so I am really not sure what I would bid.

Hehe you are right, and I modified the hand (even before your post - that was the hand I had in mind) to fit with those boring bridge rules regulations :-)

Now seriously, do you think there is a solution to my doubts ?

[inquiry]

With the new modified hand, I would double 2♠

[Antoine Fourrière]

Quote

3 and 4 = Pass. If it is passed to partner, he will know I have a strong 1NT opening bid on this auction due to his spade shortness.. and will know if it is right to balance or not

Why can't you have 11 HCP with a red singleton?

[Fluffy]

I think double is the correct bid with 18-19 balanced.

Pass with minimum 5431, double with 16+ and ♠ shortness.

[Stephen Tu]

Double with 17-19 and something like small doubleton spade or Ax spade, or less with stiff/void.

Partner should be getting in the auction with a neg double or a raise fairly aggressively over 1S (to avoid a tougher problem over 2S), so his pass should be a big warning to you. With 3+ spades or significant spade wasted values just let it go and try to beat it. Partner is likely going to turn up with a 3-4 count at best & 9 tricks are going to be tough, and you could be in a lot of trouble. The other tables would often be 1nt-(2s) all pass or similar, you aren't losing too much in this situation.

[mila85]

I play weak notrumph opening (12- bad 15). But I bid (4card)major first.
The advantage of weak NT is that your opening is mostly with 5 clubs. So your pard would support you with a pretty weak hand.

I play double here as a strong balanced hand. 17 points is enough (nice 16 over 2h). It comes very often and double with this meaning is very useful.
Partner will pass the double with hands like this: KJxx xxx Kxxx xx.
With (18)19-20 and good stopper it's best to bid 2NT.

1) x-Axxx-xxx-AKJxx
Pass. Where is the problem?

2) x-AKxx-Kxx-AQJxx
Pass. This is very difficult. Give me ♦A instead of K and I would double eventhough it shows balanced hand.

3)+4) I open major first, so I don't have any problems with showing 4 heards.

1♦-1♠-pass-2♠/?
AKx-Kxx-KJTx-QJx
-Pass. Very bad 17.
Kx-Kxx-KJTx-AQJx
-Double. (100%)
AKx-Kx-KJTxx-AJx
-2NT.

[Poky]

Chamaco, on Dec 1 2004, 10:56 AM, said:

1♣-(1♠)-pass-(2♠)
?

Now what should I bid with:

Unbalanced hands, minimum opener with good distribution VS genuine reverse

1) x-Axxx-xxx-AKJxx
2) x-AKxx-Kxx-AQJxx

15-17 balanced with and without 4H

3) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-QJx
4) KJT-Axxx-KTxx-KQ

18-19 balanced with and without 4H

5) AKxx-Kx-KJTx-AJx
6) KJT-QTxx-AKTx-KQ

1) Pass (almost a double)
2) Double
3) Pass
4) Pass
5) Pass
6) Pass

All the actions are pretty clear and understandable.

[Chamaco]

mila85, on Dec 1 2004, 10:09 PM, said:

1) x-Axxx-xxx-AKJxx
Pass. Where is the problem?

The problem lies in the concept of "prebalancing" at Matchpoints.

Saywe are playing MP, none vuln that pard has a crappy 6/7 count with 4 hearts not suitable for a negative double (in italy we play that a neg double which forces to the 2 level guarantees a decent 8; with a bad 8 or worse, pass).

He is likely to have 3 cards in spades, so he will not balance, gicven his shape; and we all know that at Matchpoints we will score pooirly more often than not.

In order to avoid this, it is opener who must take the pressure off his pard, by bidding something other than pass: the concept of "prebalancing" when opps bid and raise.

If my system forces me to pass such a hand at pairs, NV, I do not like it.

[mila85]

Quote

Say we are playing MP, none vuln that pard has a crappy 6/7 count with 4 hearts not suitable for a negative double (in italy we play that a neg double which forces to the 2 level guarantees a decent 8; with a bad 8 or worse, pass).

He is likely to have 3 cards in spades, so he will not balance, gicven his shape; and we all know that at Matchpoints we will score pooirly more often than not.

I don't think it's good to (pre)balance at third level and hope for 4-4 fit....

[Chamaco]

mila85, on Dec 2 2004, 02:26 PM, said:

I don't think it's good to (pre)balance at third level and hope for 4-4 fit....

We have 3 chances (club fit or H fit, or even diamonds, where pard may have 5 cards) : remember, when opps have a fit, WE have a fit, and we should do whatever possible to strive to avoid opps playing at the 2 level when they have a fit....

This is well known, I am not discovering anything of course..

Here we have the right distribution, and we know we MUST compete, even at the right level, with nothing wasted and spades shortness, even with only 12 hcp.

Pard won't have our distribution, and will not compete.

If we do not prebalance here, we will almost never prebalance...

[inquiry]

Pre-balancing (or the term I use OBAR bids... "opponents bid and raise") are very necessary bids. This is not an OBAR situation per se... Sure they bid and raised, but,

1) The raise makes it much, much less likely that partner was trapping over 1♠

2) Partner if he has a smattering of points, does not have hearts (no neg double) and does not have clubs (no raise).

3) Your diamond support (xxx) in hand one is less than outstanding. I suspect your partner with a maximum could easily be something like Qxx Qxx Kxxxx xx, or the like, and could obviously have a lot less... do you really want to be in 3♦ or 3♦x facing that as the "good hand" he can hold?

Ben

[Chamaco]

I am not prebalancing for trapping them, am doing it to compete (LOTT etc).

inquiry, on Dec 2 2004, 02:40 PM, said:

do  you really want to be in 3♦ or 3♦x facing that as the "good hand" he can hold?

Ben

Well, with any fit I prefer to risk this rather than letting them play 2S.
If pard has even some useful hcp, but 3 spades, he will not dare to reopen (THAT wd be much more dangerous), and from my perspective we may as well have a partscore while they have 2S.

[mila85]

Quote

(NOTE 17) SNT DOUBLE: WHEN WE PLAY WNT, DBL. ON SECOND ROUND BY OPENER IS SNT OR BETTER.

Zia-Rosenberg conv. card.