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Some questions about ELC doubles How do you bid this hand?

#1 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 09:00



Do equal level conversion doubles apply here?

EDIT: Ok, so apparently this question isn't about "ELC" doubles at all. Rather:

is your plan with this hand to double and bid 2 after partner responds 1 or does this show extras? If not, and you choose to bid 2, don't you miss your 4-4 fits?

Is the raptor 1NT overcall a real "solve-all" in this area?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by broze: 2012-October-25, 06:31

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#2 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 13:03

This is a very good question.

Mt choice is no, ELC does not apply here as I would bid 2 intending to recover any heart fit with a takeout double next. It's not conceivable to me that 2 goes float when we belong in hearts when I have light high cards and a stiff diamond.

That said, I would not be surprised to be wrong here but it fits my comfort level.

ps. Being crazed at mp's I will occasionally gamble a 1 overcall on this shape with chunkier hearts.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 13:16

For me, the heart suit isn't good enough for an overcall. It would be with the Jack, or even the ten (and still four cards). I would start with 2. Another possibility is 2, which shows the shape quite well in my preferred methods, but the hand is really too strong in high cards for that - or not strong enough.

If the hand had been and and the opening bid a spade, ELC might apply.
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#4 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 23:26

As far as I know ELC stands for EQUAL LEVEL CONVERSION. As far as I know, converting spades to clubs will require me to RAISE THE LEVEL, thus it will not be a conversion at an EQUAL LEVEL, so it will not be an EQUAL LEVEL CONVERSION.
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#5 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 23:27

The simple answer is that ELC stands for "Equal Level Correction" -- correcting to a different suit doesn't show extras unless it raises the level of the auction. Here, if you double and then convert 1 to 2, that is not an Equal Level Correction -- it raises the level from one to two. Thus it should show extras, and you should not double with this hand.

In general, ELC applies when partner bids clubs (or diamonds, if the opponents' suit is clubs), so you can double with just the two highest suits (majors if the opponents open a minor).

As to how to bid this hand, Sam and I have the agreement that a 2NT overcall shows basically exactly this hand (4+, 5+, 10-16 hcp, playing strength for the three-level, normally clubs longer than hearts so 4/6 is okay but 5/5 isn't unless the hearts are really poor). So I'd bid that! Lacking such an agreement, I think it's clear to overcall 2 and see how the auction develops.
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#6 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2012-October-25, 06:01

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-October-24, 23:26, said:

As far as I know ELC stands for EQUAL LEVEL CONVERSION. As far as I know, converting spades to clubs will require me to RAISE THE LEVEL, thus it will not be a conversion at an EQUAL LEVEL, so it will not be an EQUAL LEVEL CONVERSION.


Ok, fair enough, but this is a semantic point and I was trying to raise a bridge point. Call it what you like - is it playable to double and bid 2 when p responds 1 without necessarily showing extras? Of course I play ELC doubles usually and was clearly aware that a double here might be unusual, hence the forum topic.

It is frustrating when on trying to start a discussion on bridge someone focuses on my misinterpretation of a technical term and ignores the rest of the post. Sorry if you found it to be a stupid question...
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-October-25, 06:23

Sorry, missed many posts.
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#8 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-October-25, 08:26

If I double 1, pard responds 1 and I bid 1 that would appear to be ELC on semantics but I don't know of many (any?) who play that one.
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#9 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-October-25, 11:00

View Postbroze, on 2012-October-25, 06:01, said:

Ok, fair enough, but this is a semantic point and I was trying to raise a bridge point. Call it what you like - is it playable to double and bid 2 when p responds 1 without necessarily showing extras? Of course I play ELC doubles usually and was clearly aware that a double here might be unusual, hence the forum topic.

It is frustrating when on trying to start a discussion on bridge someone focuses on my misinterpretation of a technical term and ignores the rest of the post. Sorry if you found it to be a stupid question...


Basically it would be tough to play that you can double here because it will make competitive auctions difficult. For instance, something like 1D X 3D, you want partner to be able to bid 3S/4S when reasonable, but his hand might not be well suited for a correction to 4C/5C.

When your hand is not strong enough to control the auction if partner bids the suit you don't like, then that can get you into trouble. The idea behind ELC is basically that clubs don't matter and are already quite suspect anyways, so partner is unlikely to go crazy in clubs and if he bids them at a low level, then correcting to the same level will be fine. You lose some on your strong diamond 1 suiters but you gain in your ability to find the other major.

But an unbid major is an important suit that you will want partner to bid frequently in contested auctions, after all the main point of a takeout double is generally to get to your major suit fits.

It is standard to overcall 2C with your example hand, you have not necessarily missed hearts yet, you can bid them over a cuebid, or over a responsive X from partner, etc. But yeah there are some hands where you get blown out or partner passes 2C with a stiff club and 5 hearts and a mediocre hand, those suck. Raptor is a fix but as with all fixes, introduces new problems (like when you have a strong NT hand type).

Sorry if my first post was focused on semantics I thought you were wondering if by playing ELC it applied to this auction.
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#10 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2012-October-30, 07:34

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-October-25, 11:00, said:

Basically it would be tough to play that you can double here because it will make competitive auctions difficult. For instance, something like 1D X 3D, you want partner to be able to bid 3S/4S when reasonable, but his hand might not be well suited for a correction to 4C/5C.

When your hand is not strong enough to control the auction if partner bids the suit you don't like, then that can get you into trouble. The idea behind ELC is basically that clubs don't matter and are already quite suspect anyways, so partner is unlikely to go crazy in clubs and if he bids them at a low level, then correcting to the same level will be fine. You lose some on your strong diamond 1 suiters but you gain in your ability to find the other major.

But an unbid major is an important suit that you will want partner to bid frequently in contested auctions, after all the main point of a takeout double is generally to get to your major suit fits.

It is standard to overcall 2C with your example hand, you have not necessarily missed hearts yet, you can bid them over a cuebid, or over a responsive X from partner, etc. But yeah there are some hands where you get blown out or partner passes 2C with a stiff club and 5 hearts and a mediocre hand, those suck. Raptor is a fix but as with all fixes, introduces new problems (like when you have a strong NT hand type).

Sorry if my first post was focused on semantics I thought you were wondering if by playing ELC it applied to this auction.


Thanks, that all seems very sensible. Sorry if my OP was a bit ambiguous. I have seriously been considering taking up the raptor - but after paying careful attention to these kinds of situations at the table I can see that actually not having the 1NT overcall might be more damaging than I first anticipated.
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