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Overbid but.... Is there a chance to make?

#1 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 02:49

2NT was alerted as Spades and Diamonds. 5Diamond was 1 or 4 Key cards

This hand came up in a team match on bbo. North South were playing 2/1 .
Opening Lead was 5.
Q. 1 Do you agree with opener's rebid of 3? If not then what do you suggest?
Q. 2 Do you think N had enough to look for a slam?
Q. 3 If you are declarer how will you play this hand in 5 ?
Thanks in advance.
Aniruddha
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#2 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 03:31

1. Yes. We're already forced to game, and we have something extra to show - another heart.
2. Absolutely.
2.5. There is no point in playing 2/1 if you're going to jump to keycard after 3. If you're looking how to improve the bidding, that's the worst bid.

3. I can't find a line that won't lose to KJ/Tx with W, but I'm sure it must exist, so I'll wait for a better player to answer.
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#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 03:53

View PostAntrax, on 2012-October-23, 03:31, said:

I can't find a line that won't lose to KJ/Tx with W

Not all 4, if that's what you mean.

It does work if W is balanced with 3 spades and the KJT doesn't it?
AQ, A, K throw diamond, ruff , A and a ruff, ruff, K throw spade.
So W needs 3 spades and 2 clubs.
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 04:05

Could we not play A, ruff, A, ruff, K throwing , ruff, A, ruff and now run clubs until they ruff in?

Edit: fromage's line may be better, not sure, but I am sure we can make even if West has only 2 spades as they are ruffing with a presumed trump trick and cannot profitably draw dummy's trumps.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 04:10

View PostAntrax, on 2012-October-23, 03:31, said:

2.5. There is no point in playing 2/1 if you're going to jump to keycard after 3. If you're looking how to improve ..

Maybe this is not a fair statement unless you include a suggestion as to what would be better?

In a normal sequence opener could have bid 2, then 3 from responder would have set the suit to allow cue bidding, but that 2NT thrown in has spoiled things. Now it is not straight forward to agree hearts by other means. For example, 3 (after the 3) could be assumed to be an advance cue if responder then bid 4 over opener's 3NT, but here it will bring opener's 4 agreement and then you are up the creek. No, without specific unusual agreements, I think ace asking is reasonable.
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#6 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 04:53

1. No, the hearts are too weak. RHO just shows that the hearts are often not breaking well. If partner holds some diamonds defending will get us rich.
2. Yes, partner "promised" better hearts.

3. No line will work which plays west for 3 spades and two clubs. East bid 2 NT to show spades and diamonds. He will hardly do it with 4 spades. He seems to be 5/5 or 5/6.

So, to combine the lines: Win two spades, ace of club, King of clubs. Now two lines: IF East ruffs, I overruff and play the spade king. If west ruffs, I discard a diamond and will lose just one more trump trick, no matter which suit he plays.
If East does not ruff, I discard a spade and play the third round of clubs, ruffing, playing on similar lines then before.
I guess I just need the spades to be 2-5 and trumps 3-1.
If the spades are 1-6, I need the heart finesse working and the ace of diamonds with West, so that he cannot reach East for another round of spades....
If hearts are 4-0, I need West to be 2434, so that I can reduce my trumplength to his length, while ruffing my diamonds and discarding my spade.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 17:40

3?

Let's see: partner showed length and strength in our short suit, and rho (passed hand) showed length and a modicum of strength in our longer side suits.

We have a minimum opening hand with a weak suit, a misfit, and defence.

We don't have to make any decision at all...partner is not passing this out even if LHO opts to try for -400 the hard way.

Any decision we make ahead of partner should convey information likely to be helpful to him.

It might be useful to adopt the age-old adage...when you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.

Ok...I admit it....I really don't like 3.


Should N bid 4N?

Well, playing with me it wouldn't be a horrible bid because my 3 would have been intended to show a reasonable 6+ suit in a reasonable hand.

As for making, we have several reasonable options.

I opt for AQ spades, AK clubs, pitching a spade, club.

RHO cannot usefully ruff...if he does I overruff, and lead the spade K.

If LHO ruffs, I eventually play the heart A (or if rho had ruffed in with the heart K, the Q)and lead my last diamond.

I need RHO to have 2 clubs and at least 1 heart and no more than 5 spades....I'm also ok if he has the stiff club Q, I think.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#8 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 18:04

I think 3 is a poor bid. My hearts are simply too weak to make this bid. I would pass.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#9 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 21:58

...which is why I rarely answer questions :) To the OP, you should probably side with the people disagreeing with the 3 bid (though I would still make it in my regular partnership, since all responder would expect is a sixth heart)
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-October-23, 22:27

View PostAntrax, on 2012-October-23, 21:58, said:

...which is why I rarely answer questions :)


Thats silly. If your regular partner is happy for you to bid 3H on a relatively poor suit and a minimum hand, then fine, go ahead and bid it. How you would distinguish Kxxx AKJTxx Ax x from the actual hand I don't know though. My partners and I would not bid 3H. We don't like it, but up to you - everyone is entitled to his opinion.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 01:15

If you're asking about my regular partnership, we're exactly at that phase where we start seeing the issues with basic 2/1, where you know shape but have no clue about strength (or in this case, suit quality) until very late in the bidding (we don't even play serious 3NT yet). But that's the last from me in this thread about this - I'm open to criticism but I don't want to hijack the thread.
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 05:30

Hi,

#1 yes, you are in a FP seq., you have no interest in going for blood, you are min, you show this
#2 no, since 3H was showing min

Looking at the other comments regarding the 3H bid, it comes down, what are your agreements in FP
sequences.
The above assumed a standard agreement set, where pass followed by pulling the reopening double showes
a stronger hand.
A jump to 4H is not an opttion, since you cant be sure, that you have a fit, hence 4H is not weaker than
3H, it just showes a longer heart suit, 7+.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#13 User is offline   OBSugar 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 06:34

"3?

We don't have to make any decision at all...partner is not passing this out even if LHO opts to try for -400 the hard way.

Any decision we make ahead of partner should convey information likely to be helpful to him.

It might be useful to adopt the age-old adage...when you have nothing useful to say, say nothing."



Yes. South (a hale and thick-skinned yeoman from the Midwest) should have passed. And the contract probably ends up at 5 anyway? West likely holds five diamonds and will pre-empt over south's pass to 4. East must bid 5 over the easy 4 contract. South's next pass actually says something (I don't mind defending diamonds). And North gets to make the decision. (On the actual deal, South limits losses to two trump to make. Or should have. Grr.)
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 07:33

@HOG (and others): 2N shows the unbid suits, it is completely standard in this situation to play that 3H = to play, 3d = good with hearts, 3/4c = to play 3S = good with clubs. This is an unusual vs unusual situation.

As for the play problem. Lets assume that rho is 55 in spades and diamonds. In that case I can pick up three trumps with west by playing three rounds of spades and discarding a diamond if LHO ruffs in front of dummy. This may still leave you with an awkward guess if lho ruffs with the J. So the best line is probably to cash two spades, play top club ruff a club, and then play the spade K from hand discarding a diamond if lho ruffs high in front of dummy.

So we can make on a layout like this:



It is important not to try to cash both top clubs, as ruffing clubs without lho being able to overruff is how you get entries, and this often feels unnatural to less experienced players. LHO is in a bind when he ruffs the third spade, I discard my diamond. Suppose he returns the club Q, I go up with a top club and rho is forced to ruff. I overruff with the Q. Then I cash the heart ace and play a diamond, and ruff it in dummy and a good club takes care of the spade, lho gets only his two heart tricks.

SUppose instead that he returns a diamond, then I can ruff in dummy, and play the club K. If RHO ruffs I can over ruff and play diamond to ruff, and then another top club discarding a spade again holds lho to two heart tricks.
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#15 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 07:45

3 Hearts to play is no option in a 2/1 context.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#16 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 08:13

View PostCodo, on 2012-October-24, 07:45, said:

3 Hearts to play is no option in a 2/1 context.


Or sure I had kinda assumed SAYC, but just read "minimal" instead of "to play".

I think its important to be able to express your sixth heart before the auction comes back to you at a high level. This is a Potentially Contested Auction, so you should express to partner that you actually have an ok hand to play 5H compared to some terrible wk nt, before lho bids 5D.
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 09:07

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-October-24, 07:33, said:

@HOG (and others): 2N shows the unbid suits, it is completely standard in this situation to play that 3H = to play, 3d = good with hearts, 3/4c = to play 3S = good with clubs. This is an unusual vs unusual situation.

It is important not to try to cash both top clubs, as ruffing clubs without lho being able to overruff is how you get entries, and this often feels unnatural to less experienced players. LHO is in a bind when he ruffs the third spade, I discard my diamond. Suppose he returns the club Q, I go up with a top club and rho is forced to ruff. I overruff with the Q. Then I cash the heart ace and play a diamond, and ruff it in dummy and a good club takes care of the spade, lho gets only his two heart tricks.

SUppose instead that he returns a diamond, then I can ruff in dummy, and play the club K. If RHO ruffs I can over ruff and play diamond to ruff, and then another top club discarding a spade again holds lho to two heart tricks.

This inexperienced player fell into the trap of cashing the top clubs, pitching a spade, and then ruffed a club and cashed the spade K, pitching the diamond as LHO ruffed in. LHO now could give me the contract by exiting a heart or by leading a diamond for me to ruff. Chooosing the latter, he made me ruff in dummy and I was utterly helpless! I had no choice but to lead a heart to my A and then lead my last diamond and ruff it in dummy. I was astounded to make 11 tricks, despite my inexperienced line of play.

/sarcasm off

Phil: I suspect you didn't see this was the N/B forum, else you wouldn't have made the statement about unusual v unusual being 'completely standard' here.

I also suspect that you posted too quickly and were trying to be polite, rather than insulting or condescending, to those who cashed the AK clubs early...you misanalyzed the hand and wanted to let those who had, in your view, misplayed the hand down gently. As it is, I think that you inadvertently set a record for most errors in a single post.... a record that I may well have held (several times) before you. Cheers!
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#18 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 09:16

In truth they led 1 round of clubs and took a finesse. Since OliverC was West it looks like this was probably a BIL hand.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#19 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 12:21

NS Played 2/1. 2NT was alerted as Spades and diamonds. Lead was spade5.

This was the actual hand. I was North. My suggestion to P was to give 6-1-5-1 or 5-1-5-2 hand to rho so after spade lead he could win in dummy come to hand with H Ace and finesse club jack and discard diamonds on club AK.! :rolleyes:
Although the line works in the actual layout I can see much better lines have been suggested by others especially codo and mikeh. Thank you gentlemen.
My other suggestion to partner was that in similar situations where opponents show a 2 suiter, double should mean strength in at least one of the suits shown by opponents. Since no one has suggested it, probably the idea doesn't have merit.
Thank you all.
Aniruddha
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-October-24, 12:34

View Postzasanya, on 2012-October-24, 12:21, said:

NS Played 2/1. 2NT was alerted as Spades and diamonds. Lead was spade5.


My other suggestion to partner was that in similar situations where opponents show a 2 suiter, double should mean strength in at least one of the suits shown by opponents. Since no one has suggested it, probably the idea doesn't have merit.
Thank you all.

I think that double should indeed suggest a willingness to defend....an invitation, in fact, to partner to start doubling if they run to a suit that he wants to double.

This hand is closer, imo, to a double than to a 3 bid (which I don't like at all, as mentioned earlier). Say I held K10xx AQ9xx Kxx x: now I would double, and I'd double on the actual layout with a slightly better 3=6=3=1: say KJx AQxxx K10x x.

I want partner to start taking a piece of them at the 3-level if he holds no more than 2 hearts (and sometimes 3 weak hearts) and Hxx or even xxx in the suit he doubles. Everything has to be evaluated in context, of course.

As it is, I am reluctant to express a positive desire to activate the doubling cube when I expect them to play in my Kx suit and I have an extra heart.

Partner is still allowed to double 3 after I pass, so it isn't that my pass denies the ability to defend.

Regards
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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