[FrancesHinden]

MrAce, on 2012-October-20, 04:58, said:

Just make sure simulation recognizes 1♥ doubler will have 4 card spades MUCH MORE often than he holds 4 or more diamonds.

rhm, on 2012-October-20, 07:00, said:

It is true of course that partner is more likely to hold 4 cards in spades than diamonds.

Why is this so obvious? It looks completely wrong to me, given our hand.
Yes, when the auction starts 1H dbl then, a priori, partner is likely (but not MUCH MORE) to have 4 spades more often than 4 diamonds.

But here it is pretty obvious that partner has a strong hand. If he has a strong hand then all bets are off on his shape.
If he has a strong hand with a long suit it probably doesn't matter much what we do; if anything we should avoid bidding his long suit. If he has clubs, 1S will work better because he can jump to 3C.
If he is strong balanced he's going to bid some number of NT next, in which case if he doesn't have four spades we're better off bidding 1S because we can pass 2NT; if he is strong balanced with 4D he'll still rebid in NT while with spades he'll probably raise spades, so it's a bit random which bid will work better.
If he has a super strong take-out double, he's just as likely* to have 4 spades as 4 diamonds, and we're much better off bidding diamonds.

*OK, not quite, because we have more diamonds than spades, but only for that reason.

[ArtK78]

For what it is worth, I would bid 2♦. But I can understand bidding 1♠.

The only thing I think is wrong is those who think that 1♠ is right and 2♦ is horrible or vice versa.

[lalldonn]

I've tried to understand 1♠. I can think of one advantage, which is it lets partner rebid 1NT (assuming he doesn't have four spades) instead of 2NT if that's what he is doing. But I can not think of any other significant advantages, and certainly nothing that adds up to the fact that virtually any time partner has four spades we are going to end up in a really stupid contract at too high of a level. (And that is far from the only disadvantage of course, but it's the biggest one.)

Bidding a three card suit here is something that should be done out of necessity, not out of choice.

MrAce, on 2012-October-20, 04:58, said:

Idk why Hog reacted the way he did but he sees things, especially the ones that he doesn't agree with, ridicilious most of the time.

Welcome to the bbo forums!

[SteveMoe]

Can we infer we are talking about MP Pairs? If so the Major suit bias weighs heavily.

When the auction starts 1♥-double-pass, I expect partner to hold soemthing like HJxx x HJxx Hxxx. The minimum I look for is 10 WHCP and 4=1=4=4. Let's not have the rare hand AKxx x KJxx AKQx cloud the deliberation ("Resulting Alert"). Opposite partner's expected minimum 7 LTC, we hold 12 LTC and rate to be down 3 tricks in ♦.

By bidding 1♠ we are choosing a 7 trick contract over an 8 tricks contract because we are starting with a negative expectancy already.

Yes it is uncertain/unlikely that we will ever be allowed to play in 1♠ but there are other benefits:

1♥-double-pass-1♠
Pass-2♥-pass-2♠ is a clear warning to PASS and play 2♠. It is also safer now to introduce ♦. Partner will not expect more than 4=4.

-or-

1♥-double-pass-1♠
2♥-double-pass-2♠ is also a clear warning to pass.

-or-

1♥-double-pass-1♠
double-pass-pass we have the option to play 1♠X when they are likely cold for game.

With the given hand, partner has a very strong 3.5 loser perfect shape double - a rare holding. We rate to make 8.5 tricks in our 8 card fit.

I think 1♠ is a standout call on xxx xxxx xxx xxx and offers a better expectancy opposite partner's likely holdings with xxx xxx xxxx xxx / xxx xxxx

[Trinidad]

What do you think is easier to play? A 3-4 spade fit with a singleton next to the 4 card suit or a 4-3 diamond fit with a singleton next to the 3 card suit? I would say that the singleton next to the 3 trumps will take about one and a half tricks more.

So even if the doubler has only 3 diamonds and 4 spades, 2♦ is expected to go down less than 1♠.

And then I am not even mentioning the possibility that the doubler could have 4 diamonds... or 3 spades... or 4 diamonds and 3 spades.

Rik

[ggwhiz]

To bid 1♠ I just want to let someone, ANYONE bid 1nt (especially pard if they would otherwise bid two) or allow the opps to bid 2♣ when they otherwise can't bid 3♣.

I don't expect the auction to be over yet and 2♦ could already be a terrible spot or will be if pard goes to 3 of them. That said I don't mind a 2♦ call in the least.

[MrAce]

Here is what i think, which seems like being ignored by most of you.

- Everyone seems to believe that opponents will not bid again after they opened 1♥ and other one passed.

- Even if that is the case, which leaves our pd to hold ***** loads of hcp, thus he started with DBL planning either to bid his spades, diamonds or clubs, or NT later. Or about to cue.

Among all these, i believe pd is about to bid NT much more often than any other bids listed. I mean yes when pd has a giant with heart stiff, as i admitted in earlier post, i wanna be in diamonds too. But i still didn't recieve an answer from Cyber about how on earth opponents, with as much strength as our side and 9 card fit remained silent ?

Pd will not have to hold 4 spades when he is that strong, he may be as short as doubleton or singleton spade. Rightly or wrongly i bid 1♠ because pd rates to rebid NT when i hold this poor collection and opponents are doing nothing after they opened 1♥. What is the likelyhood of them having 9 card solid hearts and half of the deck ?

@ Cyber : If you check old topics, you will see people bid 1♠ and then bid 4 ♠ when pd doubles and cues or splinters with hands like xxxxx xxxx xx xx (i am just making up a hand to make a point) I also disagree with you about pd shd cue with the original hand if we bid 1♠ or 2♦. I think he has a clear 3♥ bid. He can not just bid with the fear of we are holding 3343 and nothing.He will have to take the risk of playing either 3♠ or 4♦. But thats a matter of opinion, and i believe you if you say you can stay in 3♦.

@ Rainer : I appreciate the detailed explenation. You made me think more about the outcomes of playing a 4-3 2♠ and 4-4 3♦ contracts, and you have valid points. Perhaps i overestimated the possibilities of pd holding a hand where he has to raise to 3♦ with only 3 card fit. I confess it is very very rare.

Overall, as i said eralier i may be convinced that 2♦ is a better choice. I am not ashamed to back up from my view since my priority reason to write in these forums is to improve myself, not to show or prove anyone how good or how brave bidder/player i am. It has been and it will always be a competition for me mostly with myself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure 2♦ was the winning call, looking at the title of this topic. I just disagree with those who thinks it is a matter of sanity or insanity to choose one or the other on this hand as well as i disagree with those who thinks other choice is a joke, especially when one of the top players in forums says he bids 2♦ and wouldn't even consider 1♠.

I was dissapointed though with the views which thought i was bidding 1♠ with the hope that i was planning to play there. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, after RHO did not raise hearts, we will hear NT from pd much more often than any other bids if LHO passes too. Please lets agree that when pd is very strong he can hold any type of hands and he may even be void in spades. I dont understand the concern about he will always have spade fit and raise us, especially when RHO passed and LHO will remain silent. Cmon now ...trying to keep auction as low as possible is neither insanity nor unlogical with this hand we hold.

Peace all

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2012-October-20, 15:48, said:

Here is what i think, which seems like being ignored by most of you.

- Everyone seems to believe that opponents will not bid again after they opened 1♥ and other one passed.

- Even if that is the case, which leaves our pd to hold ***** loads of hcp, thus he started with DBL planning either to bid his spades, diamonds or clubs, or NT later. Or about to cue.

Among all these, i believe pd is about to bid NT much more often than any other bids listed. I mean yes when pd has a giant with heart stiff, as i admitted in earlier post, i wanna be in diamonds too. But i still didn't recieve an answer from Cyber about how on earth opponents, with as much strength as our side and 9 card fit remained silent ?

That is why I think partner is marked with a huge hand, his hand is pretty minimum if short in hearts.

Quote

Pd will not have to hold 4 spades when he is that strong, he may be as short as doubleton or singleton spade. Rightly or wrongly i bid 1♠ because pd rates to rebid NT when i hold this poor collection and opponents are doing nothing after they opened 1♥. What is the likelyhood of them having 9 card solid hearts and half of the deck ?

IF partner is short in hearts, he has at least half the deck himself, but note that you are in the land of the 4+ card 1♥, not everybody raises with 3, and not everybody bids again with a bad hand with 6. On the actual hand however I have absolutely no idea why there wasn't a raise over the double. What would you bid over 1♥-X-2♥-P-P-X-P ? 2♠ or 3♦ which you have 2 ways to bid and can show the bad one ? In fact the only way to beat 3♥ with the opps holding ♠J9xx opposite Q10 is to underlead the ♣AKQ and get a diamond through the AQ.

Quote

@ Cyber : If you check old topics, you will see people bid 1♠ and then bid 4 ♠ when pd doubles and cues or splinters with hands like xxxxx xxxx xx xx (i am just making up a hand to make a point) I also disagree with you about pd shd cue with the original hand if we bid 1♠ or 2♦. I think he has a clear 3♥ bid. He can not just bid with the fear of we are holding 3343 and nothing.He will have to take the risk of playing either 3♠ or 4♦. But thats a matter of opinion, and i believe you if you say you can stay in 3♦.

If I double and cue I suspect I'm showing a little less than if you do, a balanced 19 with 4 spades will be enough for me, so I won't be jumping to game with that collection, and certainly not xxxx, xxx, x, xxxxx.

Quote

Overall, as i said eralier i may be convinced that 2♦ is a better choice. I am not ashamed to back up from my view since my priority reason to write in these forums is to improve myself, not to show or prove anyone how good or how brave bidder/player i am. It has been and it will always be a competition for me mostly with myself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure 2♦ was the winning call, looking at the title of this topic. I just disagree with those who thinks it is a matter of sanity or insanity to choose one or the other on this hand as well as i disagree with those who thinks other choice is a joke, especially when one of the top players in forums says he bids 2♦ and wouldn't even consider 1♠.

I was dissapointed though with the views which thought i was bidding 1♠ with the hope that i was planning to play there. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, after RHO did not raise hearts, we will hear NT from pd much more often than any other bids if LHO passes too. Please lets agree that when pd is very strong he can hold any type of hands and he may even be void in spades. I dont understand the concern about he will always have spade fit and raise us, especially when RHO passed and LHO will remain silent. Cmon now ...trying to keep auction as low as possible is neither insanity nor unlogical with this hand we hold.

Peace all

My worry if I bid 1♠ is that partner will assume I have 4 once he finds out I don't have 4 hearts. Give partner something really big of similar shape and consider an auction of 1♥-X-P-1♠-2♥-X-3♥-P-P now it sounds like I only have 3 hearts, so he might just punt 4♠ with something slightly bigger (say AKxx, x, AKxx, AKQx) which would play terribly badly on 2 rounds of hearts and trumps 4-2.

[the hog]

zasanya, on 2012-October-20, 01:31, said:

2♦ for me . A question for those who always bid 1♠ with this or similar hands. Do you or your regular partner alert it?

Of course not. It is a natural bid.

[the hog]

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:
xxxx
x
KJxxxx
xx

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.
With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.
I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.
xxxx
xx
xxx
xxxx

With say
AKJx
xx
Kxx
AKJx
What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

[Phil]

1♠ works better when partner passes, or bids 1N, or gives the opponents extra room to find a club fit. 2♦ also forces partner to bid 2N with a 19 count. 1♠ is better when partner chose to make an offshape x with a good 4324.

1♠ is demonstrably worse when partner hangs us. I don't think I like either scenario if partner cue bids.

Doesn't seem close to me.

[Trinidad]

the hog, on 2012-October-20, 23:35, said:

zasanya, on 2012-October-20, 01:31, said:

2♦ for me . A question for those who always bid 1♠ with this or similar hands. Do you or your regular partner alert it?

Of course not. It is a natural bid.

So are canape openings and Walsh responses to 1♣. It's not a strange idea to treat canape responses to a takeout double the same way as Walsh or canape openings.

I would not answer zasanya's question with a definite "Yes", but "Of course not." is an overstatement. If the question would have been part of a test, this answer would not earn any credit.

Rik

[awm]

2d for me. It seems bidding 1s is quite bad if partner has four spades. Even worse if partner had three spades... say AKx xx AKxx KQJx and cuebids 2h over your 1s (or doubles 2h to show extras). Now 3d from you sounds like a hand so you are end played to a violation of Burn's law.

[rhm]

the hog, on 2012-October-20, 23:50, said:

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:
xxxx
x
KJxxxx
xx

I would bid 2♦ followed by 3♠ over a cue-bid of 2♥. This should describe such a hand. If I feel I am not strong enough to jump over a cuebid I will bid a 4 card major in preference to a longer minor. So a 2♠ bid in response to a cuebid after (1♥) DBL - 2♦ - 2♥ can not show a 4 card spade suit.

But let me also ask a different question to the 1♠ bidders:
You hold ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42
How do distinguish this hand from the actual one ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42?

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-20, 03:47, said:

It matters a lot in this case:

Partner's hand is:

AKxx
x
KJxx
AKQx

Opposite ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42 game in spades is excellent.
Opposite ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42 game in spades is a disaster.
The sad truth is rebidding a 3 card major means you keep your partner in the dark about your distribution.
I can not see how your partner with a very strong hand can ever make a sensible decision that way.

Quote

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.
With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.
I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.
xxxx
xx
xxx
xxxx

With say
AKJx
xx
Kxx
AKJx
What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

Of course I double with 4=2=3=4 distribution.

With say

AKJx
xx
Kxx
AKJx

I double and the bidding would probably go (1♥)-DBL-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♦-Pass.
Not nice but still much better than 1♥-DBL-1♠-3♠. (And I consider stopping below 4♠ conservative. I bet most would not at the table)

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2012-October-20, 23:50, said:

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:
xxxx
x
KJxxxx
xx

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.
With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.
I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.
xxxx
xx
xxx
xxxx

With say
AKJx
xx
Kxx
AKJx
What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

A bid of 2♠ without competition does show a decent hand, maybe 15-17 in my book, but if the intervening hand bids 2♥ might be a little weaker.

If I have 4 spades, 5/6 diamonds and a minimum, I bid 1♠, and over 2♥ bid 3♦.

On the final hand you give, I double, cue and either pass 2♠ (partner will be 3/4 in ♠/♦) or bid 3♦ with no strong feeling which I do.

[MrAce]

rhm, on 2012-October-21, 02:19, said:

But let me also ask a different question to the 1♠ bidders:
You hold ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42
How do distinguish this hand from the actual one ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42?

I think i already answered this question. With the original hand doubler bids 3♥ regardless of we bid 1 ♠ or 2♦. Any other bid is nothing but resulting imo. This is the best way of describing our hand. You bid 3♠ and go down with the actual hand we hold, you bid 4♠ with the hand you gave that has 5 spades. And i am not in the same camp with Cyber who believes 4 card spades balanced hand and 19 hcp is enough to cue. There is 2 ♠ bid to show extras, there is 3♠ bid to show more than 16-18 range, there is jump cue, there are splinter bids (4♥) and there is finally the normal cue, which doesn't even promise a fit yet imo.

Doubler is aware that 1♠ can be made on 3 card suit, after all we have to bid something with xxx xxxx xxx xxx. In fact when doubler sees LHO passed and ddint raise his pd, and opener didn't rebid his hearts this is not even a rare possibility anymore. But Cyber said something about 4 card major land, which is another story. But i played in other lands where people don't remain silent when they have half of the deck and 9 card SOLID major suit fit. If they do, i know pd is about to bid some number of NT. Not a cue, not a support, but mostly NT. I mean as Josh said you can say "only gain i see is when pd is about to bid NT" , as if it is only one of the many other bids pd may make, but i believe we will hear NT from pd overwhelmingly more than any other bid when opponents are silent in this auction after they opened 1♥.

Rainer, all i am saying is, you would want to start 1♠ if someone whispered you that pd is about to bid NT. And i would want to start 2♦ if someone whispered my ear that pd has BOTH perfect take out shape AND a giant. Rightly or wrongly i believe the #1 is more likely. Given the conditions (auction in OP and the hand i hold) i think for me to say that #1 is more likely is an understatement actually.

[PhilKing]

1NT.

[lalldonn]

It's kind of making me laugh that it seems like everyone who bids 1♠, with the notable exception of Mr. Ace, thinks partner will just cuebid and pass 2♠ on all kinds of hands that frankly are worth a game force or extremely close. These example hands are insane, like AKxx x KJxx AKQx. Partner needs xxxx xxx Qxx xxx to want to be in game. Hands like that are just a game force. In practical real-life bridge you can't cater to partner holding a 0 count without losing to far more frequent situations. Even a stodgy wimpy bidder would have to at least force to three. I think partner will cuebid then pass on hands with three spades often. In fact, that is the expected hand type, since with four spades he would just raise to the appropriate level.

Mr. Ace, I know you probably weren't referring to me, but I am not ignoring that the opener might well bid again. I think that is even worse for bidding 1♠ since if he rebids 2♥ or 3♥ then partner has lost the cuebid and some of his raises, so he will probably just blast 4♠ a lot. Plus, what if partner doubles opener's rebid, suggesting extras with three spades? Then you either knowingly go to your 3-3 fit, or bid diamonds a level higher which must show a stronger hand. You have a point that 1♠ is better if opener is rebidding notrump, which is something I mentioned in my earlier post. (But if he has the same strength with four spades you are worse instead of better.) However, if he is doing anything else, then I just don't see how 1♠ is likely to work well.

[gszes]

The back and forth on this subject was interesting reading. This hand stinks
and is very unlikely to work well opposite almost any strong hand p has no matter
how the bidding proceeds because this hand stinks. Most of the time when time p has a strong
hand we will end up at the 3 level or higher (except) when p can come back 1n over our
1s overcall. This is where the 1s bid has the ability to gain a ton of MP (maybe not so
many IMPS though). 1S at IMPS runs the rather large risk of finding p with a spade fit
and straining to bid game which can lead to huge disasters (this will rarely happen after
2d because 5d is so far away).

IMO it appears that

MP 1s may have a small edge over 2d though I am not sure (im in the 2d camp here).
IMPS 2d is just plain safer and will most likely be far more IMP frinedly
in the long run. Be prepared to rebid 3d (UGHHHHHHHHHHHHH) over a 2h cue bid.

This hand stinks.

[MrAce]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-21, 05:11, said:

It's kind of making me laugh that it seems like everyone who bids 1♠, with the notable exception of Mr. Ace, thinks partner will just cuebid and pass 2♠ on all kinds of hands that frankly are worth a game force or extremely close. These example hands are insane, like AKxx x KJxx AKQx. Partner needs xxxx xxx Qxx xxx to want to be in game. Hands like that are just a game force. In practical real-life bridge you can't cater to partner holding a 0 count without losing to far more frequent situations. Even a stodgy wimpy bidder would have to at least force to three. I think partner will cuebid then pass on hands with three spades often. In fact, that is the expected hand type, since with four spades he would just raise to the appropriate level.

Mr. Ace, I know you probably weren't referring to me, but I am not ignoring that the opener might well bid again. I think that is even worse for bidding 1♠ since if he rebids 2♥ or 3♥ then partner has lost the cuebid and some of his raises, so he will probably just blast 4♠ a lot. Plus, what if partner doubles opener's rebid, suggesting extras with three spades? Then you either knowingly go to your 3-3 fit, or bid diamonds a level higher which must show a stronger hand. You have a point that 1♠ is better if opener is rebidding notrump, which is something I mentioned in my earlier post. (But if he has the same strength with four spades you are worse instead of better.) However, if he is doing anything else, then I just don't see how 1♠ is likely to work well.

Yes Josh, Justin would call me Timo so i am guessing this is you

I am aware and admitted that i would wanna start 2♦ if pd is not about to bid NT. Perhaps i am overestimating the possibility of pd bidding NT in this auction.

I % 100 agree with you that pds hand can make game vs justa 5 card spades or even just 4 card spades. He ain't gonna pass in peace after he cued over 2♠, no way.

Since we all threw our 2 cents, repeatedly, about what we should start with and why, may i take attention to a different choice in this auction ? What would you guys prefer with pds hand, after he doubled and heard a-1♠ b-2♦ ? 2♥ or 3♥ or 4♥ if pd bid spades ? Because there seems also different ideas about this as well. I personally think 3♥ is the bid that describes our hand best but i would like to hear what everybody thinks and of course why.

gszes, on 2012-October-21, 08:02, said:

IMPS 2d is just plain safer and will most likely be far more IMP frinedly
in the long run. Be prepared to rebid 3d (UGHHHHHHHHHHHHH) over a 2h cue bid.

This hand stinks.

I am definetely with Rainer on this one, if i started 2♦ i would bid 2♠ now over 2♥ cue. There is no way i would skip spades if i had 4 of them. (As you see i didn't even skip 3 card spades )