BBO Discussion Forums: Structure after strong 2NT - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Structure after strong 2NT 5-4 in majors

#1 User is offline   mila85 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: 2004-September-02

  Posted 2004-November-29, 14:00

What structure do you use after strong 2NT?

What do you think about this?:
3 is puppet stayman. 3, are transfers. I think this is pretty common.
3 is transfer to 3NT.
3NT promises 5 and 4.
4 is gerber
4 5-5 in majors
4M can be long minors and shortness in other M

.....2NT-3|3
-3 is without 4 spades
-3NT is with 4 spades

.....2NT-3|3NT
-pas normal 3NT
-4m is nat forsing
-higher bids can be anything what you want

Advantages:
-You are able to show 5spades and 4heards under 3NT.
-With 5heards and 4spades you play possible 4 from stronger hand.
-After 2NT-3NT|4M you can go on to slam (without fit you play 3NT).
-2NT-3|3-4 is 5-4 and forsing!
-2NT-3|3-3|3NT-4 shows 6 heards and is forsing.
-It's easy to show 5-5 in M's. When opener chooses a suit you can pass or continue in bidding.

Disadvantages:
-Possible lead directing doubles. Or is it an advantage? B)
-With 5 heards, 4spades and slam hand you must bid 4 after transfer to heards (3NT is passable)
-no transfers to minors.
-Can be disasterous when you forget and bid natural 3NT.......

Comments?
Sorry, my english is not perfect :(
0

#2 User is offline   EricK 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,297
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Location:England

Posted 2004-November-29, 14:19

The last disadvantage should be written in bold italic CAPITALS.

And not only might you bid a natural 3NT when you should have bid 3, but partner might pass 3NT when he should have bid 4M.

Technically the system may be sound, but in practice it should only be used if partners have good memories and are very forgiving!

Eric
0

#3 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-November-29, 15:54

The hands with 5-4 in the majors are always tough, as are minor suit hands.

My preference when playing a strong 2N (if I must!):

3 - Puppet Stayman. You can play around with the responses to show hands with 5 and 4.
3 / 3 - Normal Jacoby; 2N - 3 - 3 - 3 can show 5/4
3 = Either 5 spades / 4 hearts or (my preference): relay to 3N. Thence:
----->4 / 4 - Key card in other minor
----->4 / 4 - shortness and slam try with both minors

3N - Relay to 4 (runout with long minor unsuitable for 3N)
4 - Roman Gerber
4/4 - Texas
4 - Quantitative Raise to 4N, but interest in a 4-4 minor fit.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#4 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2004-November-29, 18:03

I prefer 3 as a modified puppet stayman, which can show 54+ in the Majors as well. This way you use 3 as puppet to 3NT and 3NT & 4m as minor 2-suiter with(out) slam ambition. I already posted it twice, I think that's enough...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#5 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2004-November-29, 18:47

2N-3N=artificial....

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. yeah thats about it. Oh yeah, puppet is the most overrated convention ever.
0

#6 User is offline   mr1303 

  • Admirer of Walter the Walrus
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,541
  • Joined: 2003-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
  • Interests:Bridge, surfing, water skiing, cricket, golf. Generally being outside really.

Posted 2004-November-29, 19:06

Quote

Oh yeah, puppet is the most overrated convention ever.


I agree. I'm just as likely to open 2NT with a 5 card major as I am 1NT with a 5 card major, and I don't use puppet stayman then, so I don't see any reason why I should have to do it when I open 2NT.
0

#7 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2004-November-29, 20:37

I think puppet works fine over a 2NT opening. There arer many variations, and some of them let you find your major suit fit with 5-4 in the majors. with 4-5 I would just transfer into hearts and bid spades. As Free said, you can easily find these treatments.

I think that 3S as a puppet to 3NT to show minor oriented hands works fine, but so does 3S as minor suit stayman.

I would prefer to play 3NT as natural, and some of my older partners would insist on it.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#8 User is offline   mila85 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: 2004-September-02

Posted 2004-November-30, 09:52

To Free:
---------------

Quote

I prefer 3♣ as a modified puppet stayman, which can show 54+ in the Majors as well.


With 5 and 4 you don't have any problem so from my point of view it's useless to use (modified) puppet stayman. I only switched 3 and 3NT after 2NT-3|3 in order to play contract from stronger hand.

Quote

After 2NT-3C-3D (no 4c M or 4-4):
3H = Smolen (4H & 5+S) OR no 4 card M OR slam invitation in m
3S = Smolen (4S & 5+H)
3NT = 4 card M

With 5 and 4 modified stayman works.
But:
-How do you bid slam hands with 4-4 majors?
-I would switch 3H and 3S because with 5-4 and 4-4 fits it's mostly beter to play in 4-4.

To pclayton:
--------------

Quote

3♠ = Either 5 spades / 4 hearts or (my preference): relay to 3N. Thence:
----->4♣ / 4♦ - Key card in other minor
----->4♥ / 4♠ - shortness and slam try with both minors
3N - Relay to 4♣ (runout with long minor unsuitable for 3N)
4♣ - Roman Gerber
4♦/4♥ - Texas


-I think it's better to play 4 as 5-5 majors because it's very comfortable and you can use 3 / texas.
If you play 3 as 5-4M's:
-I can show it by 3NT->I play 4 from stronger hand.
-You must use puppet stayman when you simply want to play 3NT.
-I don't have runouts to minor but you can't bid strong hands with minor onesuiter.
If you play 3 as relay to 3NT:
-It's what I do.
-I only use natural bidding after 2NT-3|3NT-4m instead of key card
-I dont need runout to minor so I use 3NT as 5-4. (You must have very long a bad minor to make 4m and not 2NT)

To Jlal and mr1303:
--------------------
I don't like puppet stayman too but I need it when I want 2 opening as GF if it isn't balanced (or weak two in major).

To all:
-------
It's bad when you forget the convenction but you bid 3 with 3 cards in major in unbalanced hand so 2NT-3NT doesn't come very often... :)
Sorry, my english is not perfect :(
0

#9 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-November-30, 10:45

Mila said: I think it's better to play 4♦ as 5-5 majors because it's very comfortable and you can use 3♦ /♥ texas.


You trade the mild slam try of 2N - 3x - 3y - 4y for this. No strong feelings.

If you play 3♠ as 5-4M's:
-I can show it by 3NT->I play 4♠ from stronger hand.


Reasonable approach.

-You must use puppet stayman when you simply want to play 3NT.

No, I can relay through 3 like you do.

-I don't have runouts to minor but you can't bid strong hands with minor onesuiter.
If you play 3♠ as relay to 3NT:


Read my post again. I relay through 3 to show the minor suit one suiter. My answers are key cards however, instead of just showing the suit. This keeps responder as the captain, which I think is more important in these auctions.

I think using 3N as the runout to 4 of a minor is more useful than 'right-siding' the 5-4 major hands. And occasionally, we get the magic 3N when Opener has, say AKx in both minors.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#10 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2004-November-30, 11:52

mila85, on Nov 30 2004, 04:52 PM, said:

To Free:
---------------

Quote

I prefer 3♣ as a modified puppet stayman, which can show 54+ in the Majors as well.


With 5 and 4 you don't have any problem so from my point of view it's useless to use (modified) puppet stayman. I only switched 3 and 3NT after 2NT-3|3 in order to play contract from stronger hand.

Ok, I can understand you don't have a problem with 5 and 4, but I do. I don't play normal transfers, but we superaccept immediatly when we have a 3 card support. Because of that, we might miss a superior 4-4 fit and play in a silly 5-3... :rolleyes:
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#11 User is offline   luis 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,143
  • Joined: 2003-May-02
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 2004-November-30, 14:38

I think Romex is a good structure over 2NT
3c=Romex Stayman
3d=transfer to h
3h=transfer to s
3s=puppet to 3NT to pass or show a one-suited hand with a minor
3n=both minors

After 3c
3h=4/5 hearts
3s=5 cards
3n=4-4 majors
3d=may have 4 spades

Over 3d, 3h asks for 4 spades and 3s is used as a hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts
3d transfer to h folllowed by 3s shows 5h and 4 spades
3h transfer to spades followed by 4h shows 5-5

Quite simple and covers a lot of hands.
The legend of the black octogon.
0

#12 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 536
  • Joined: 2003-May-28
  • Location:Saltlake City

Posted 2004-November-30, 15:36

Jlall, on Nov 30 2004, 12:47 AM, said:

2N-3N=artificial....

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. yeah thats about it. Oh yeah, puppet is the most overrated convention ever.

I don't really like puppet either, however if partner insists, I don't mind playing it.
To me, it's just inferior to standard treatment. 5-4 majors becomes not biddable.
I don't mind an artificial 2NT 3NT as long as we both still remember it. Actually Greg and I play 3NT for coventional meanings, and we haven't forgotten it so far.
0

#13 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,394
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2004-November-30, 15:49

mila85, on Nov 29 2004, 08:00 PM, said:

What structure do you use after strong 2NT?

3NT promises 5 and 4.
4 is gerber

.....2NT-3|3
-3 is without 4 spades
-3NT is with 4 spades

Advantages:
-You are able to show 5spades and 4heards under 3NT.
-With 5heards and 4spades you play possible 4 from stronger hand.

Comments?

You might be able to show 5-4, but unable to show 6, 4.

Gerber is simply a bad convention.

2NT-3-3... you will find oppener has 3 support at the 4 level.
0

#14 User is offline   mila85 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: 2004-September-02

Posted 2004-December-01, 14:56

pclayton:
----------

Quote

I think it's better to play 4♦ as 5-5 majors because it's very comfortable and you can use 3♦ /♥ texas.
You trade the mild slam try of 2N - 3x - 3y - 4y for this. No strong feelings.

I haven't ever heard about this difference. Intersting... :blink:
I don't need gerber so 4 can show 5-5 majors and 4/ can be transfers :P

Quote

You must use puppet stayman when you simply want to play 3NT.
No, I can relay through 3♠ like you do.

I understood to your post that there are two options how to play 3: 5-4 majors or relay to 3NT.
This is about the first case.

Quote

-I don't have runouts to minor but you can't bid strong hands with minor onesuiter.

Also about the first case.

If you play 3 as transfer to 3NT the only differnce is really that I show 5-4 quickly and you can bid runouts to minor. (I don't see big difference between using cuebids and responing keycard after 4m).
The whole true is that I don't need runouts to minor because I open 21-22 BAL hands 2 and then 2 is relay and other bids show weak hands (runouts to minor too).

Luis:
-----
I like this structure.
I would only switch 3 and 3NT after 2NT-3/3 :D

Fluffy:
-------

Quote

You might be able to show 5♠-4♥, but unable to show 6♠, 4♥.

I would bid 3 and after 3NT (others are with 4+c major->no problem) I simply bid 4.

Quote

2NT-3♦-3♥... you will find oppener has 3♥ support at the 4 level.

And do you have a solution?
(I don't want to superaccept with 3card suppord).
Sorry, my english is not perfect :(
0

#15 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-December-02, 06:31

Jlall, on Nov 30 2004, 01:47 AM, said:

Oh yeah, puppet is the most overrated convention ever.

Not true. Puppet actually has some interest. It's GERBER which is horrible :rolleyes:
0

#16 User is offline   Chamaco 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,902
  • Joined: 2003-December-02
  • Location:Rimini-Bologna (Italy)
  • Interests:Chess, Bridge, Jazz, European Cinema, Motorbiking, Tango dancing

Posted 2004-December-02, 07:54

You might want to take a look also at:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...?showtopic=3887

This link is in the "FAQ" section of the BB Forum (accessible from the "General bridge discussion" section - http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...?showtopic=5612.

The "FAQ is still rather incomplete (80% of the posted material is still to be examined- sorry- had a flu last weekend :rolleyes: ), but in a few weeks it should provide an organized way to access recurrent topics such as "Suggested scheme after XXX opening ?" etc etc
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users