[Hanoi5]

All red, imp's:

♠xx
♥Q98xxxx
♦Q43
♣J

(2♦*)-Pa-(2♥**)-3♣
(Pa)-???

*Multi
**Pass or correct

Do you pass or bid your 7-card suit?

[cloa513]

Hanoi5, on 2012-October-13, 19:46, said:

All red, imp's:

♠xx
♥Q98xxxx
♦Q43
♣J

(2♦*)-Pa-(2♥**)-3♣
(Pa)-???

*Multi
**Pass or correct

Do you pass or bid your 7-card suit?

Any feeling on the nature of partner's defence to the multi? E.g. does he treat the 2♥ as natural and possibly double for takeout.

[Hanoi5]

cloa513, on 2012-October-13, 20:19, said:

Any feeling on the nature of partner's defence to the multi? E.g. does he treat the 2♥ as natural and possibly double for takeout.

Partner's double would be for TO.

[ggwhiz]

I'm bidding 3♥ fully expecting that this may not end well.

The 2♥ bid as pass or correct may have short spades with partner having length in both black suits but if I'm lucky enough to catch a reasonable heart fit, pard must have quite a decent hand to come in at the 3 level here.

[FrancesHinden]

I pass. The auction is effectively the same as if LHO had opened a weak 2S and partner had overcalled 3C (although partner's minimum is slightly higher as he could have passed 2H and then protected 2S). I wouldn't bid then, so I don't bid now.

[Codo]

I do not need too much to make 4 ♥, so I go for it...

[PhilKing]

There is a pretty decent chance that four of a major is cold.

If I bid 3♥, LHO will often jump to 4♠, make an easy ten tricks, and I will end with egg on my face. If I pass, he will assume his partner has hearts and we will buy the hand in 3♣.

Forget about the chance of making Four Hearts - it's a mirage. If we find partner with a fit, the chances of pushing them to 4♠ is close to 100%. They may well go off but I would rather not push them.

[ggwhiz]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-14, 12:14, said:

There is a pretty decent chance that four of a major is cold.

If I bid 3♥, LHO will often jump to 4♠, make an easy ten tricks, and I will end with egg on my face. If I pass, he will assume his partner has hearts and we will buy the hand in 3♣.

Forget about the chance of making Four Hearts - it's a mirage. If we find partner with a fit, the chances of pushing them to 4♠ is close to 100%. They may well go off but I would rather not push them.

The idea that they will pass out 3♣ when cold for 4♠ is insulting to them and I reject that as a matter of general policy. If they are palookas, we will beat them sooner or later and neither one of them has shown any strength yet.

My pard has a serious hand to step into a live auction, red at the 3 level and with a stiff club and diamond piece I'll confidently take my chances on defence and I agree that there is a decent chance that 4 of a major is cold, just not spades. The pass by my rho over 3♣ is a sign of weakness, feebleness or not knowing how to play multi.

[gnasher]

ggwhiz, on 2012-October-14, 18:45, said:

The idea that they will pass out 3♣ when cold for 4♠ is insulting to them and I reject that as a matter of general policy. If they are palookas, we will beat them sooner or later and neither one of them has shown any strength yet.

The idea that they will pass out 3♣ when cold for 4♠ arises from the ambiguity in their methods. If responder is looking at 4=1 in the majors, why should he think they have 4♠ on?

Quote

My pard has a serious hand to step into a live auction, red at the 3 level and with a stiff club and diamond piece I'll confidently take my chances on defence and I agree that there is a decent chance that 4 of a major is cold, just not spades. The pass by my rho over 3♣ is a sign of weakness, feebleness or not knowing how to play multi.

RHO has a hand which he evaluated as a weak two in spades. Since then he has received no encouragement whatsoever. Why do you expect him to bid?

[Codo]

RHO already passed 3 ♣, he won't reevaluate now. But if they have so much stuff, that 4 ♠ is cold, maybe LHO will- he does not need to hold 4-1 in the majors, he may have 4-3 or 3-3...

But anyway: Our partner bid into a multi bidding sequence. With my club shortage I would not belive that 4 ♠ makes at all. OF course it is possible- but not likely.

[PhilKing]

---

This is the kind of layout (there are worse) you might run into ...

And I don't buy this stuff about partner showing a great hand to overcall. Seriously guys, where does that come from? I'd be interested to see a construction where bidding 3♥ works well.

[Codo]

---

3 Heart works well..

My God, of course you will find hands where you may help them into their making 4 Spades... And there are hands where you better bid now or you miss your game or a juicy penalty. This is no surprise, is it?

And of course partner has a good hand- the one you gave him is good, isn't it?

[Bad_Wolf]

multi users miss big fits quite often. recently we picked up a double slam swing when a player with ♠AKQxxxx could not believe his pard had a weak 2 in spades

Oh and we scored +1 in our slam after a trick one ruff-sluff! yay

[PhilKing]

Codo, on 2012-October-15, 04:15, said:

3 Heart works well and you need even less from partner...

My God, of course you will find hands where you may help them into their making 4 Spades... And there are hands where you better bid now or you miss your game or a juicy penalty. This is no surprise, is it?

And of course partner has a good hand- the one you gave him is good, isn't it?

Yep, nice.

I am still awaiting elucidation for not overcalling 3♣ with, say, Ax xx Kxx KQT9xx, which is a completely routine minimum for me.

I gave partner a good hand because I am a kind person - not because I think he needs one.

This post has been edited by PhilKing: 2012-October-15, 04:34

[Vampyr]

Bad_Wolf, on 2012-October-15, 04:18, said:

multi users miss big fits quite often.

Not if they know what they are doing.

[PhilKing]

Vampyr, on 2012-October-15, 09:46, said:

Not if they know what they are doing.

Please tell us how they divine that partner's major is spades here ...

[ggwhiz]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-15, 03:37, said:

---

This is the kind of layout (there are worse) you might run into ...

On this one I can't imagine a competent pair not getting to 4♠ on their own steam, ie. double of 3♣ shows decent values making the 2♥ pass or correct bid one that prefers spades over hearts.

Trade wests ♣A for pards ♣K and I think 4 of both majors makes and a 5♥ sac is only down 1. Doesn't sound like a sac either.

I don't pretend that a 3♥ bid is 100% but feel like it's much more than 50% to work out.

[PhilKing]

ggwhiz, on 2012-October-15, 10:21, said:

On this one I can't imagine a competent pair not getting to 4♠ on their own steam, ie. double of 3♣ shows decent values making the 2♥ pass or correct bid one that prefers spades over hearts.

For virtually all players in England, double of 3♣ is penalties, which gets them a lucky one off here. Only a double of 2M is played as take-out.

[ggwhiz]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-15, 10:33, said:

For virtually all players in England, double of 3♣ is penalties, which gets them a lucky one off here. Only a double of 2M is played as take-out.

Fair enough but over here it's more commonly defensive values, enough to go plus most often but not 100% penalty as you are doubling in front of their club suit and that's where I take the inference that the 2♥ pass or correct bid must prefer spades to hearts.

If pards multi bid had hearts we will hurt them right here and by revealing these values I could have bid 2♠ as pass or correct.

[PhilKing]

ggwhiz, on 2012-October-15, 10:43, said:

Fair enough but over here it's more commonly defensive values, enough to go plus most often but not 100% penalty as you are doubling in front of their club suit and that's where I take the inference that the 2♥ pass or correct bid must prefer spades to hearts.

If pards multi bid had hearts we will hurt them right here and by revealing these values I could have bid 2♠ as pass or correct.

So double is pen opposite hearts and take-out opposite spades? That is how I interpret the second paragraph. Have I understood this correctly.

Not that you really have a penalty double opposite hearts.