[jh51]

team game - IMPs

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I made an aggressive overcall with both majors, and partner made the somewhat practical slam bid. She knew I had the ♥ Ace or King (or both), but how to find out which? And even if I had the Ace, for no trump losers, can you find out if there is a spade loser?

For what it is worth, at the other table our teammates bid 7♦ and were doubled when 6♥ was bid. -800 gave us 12 IMPs.

[dwar0123]

Don't think you will ever find out about the spade situation, given the opponents will probably keep preempting, regardless of your methods.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

(1D ) - 1H - ( 3D ) - 5D! = Voidwood
( X ) - P ! - ( 6D ) - 6H

P ! = ROPI , pass! = 1 key card excluding the ♦ Ace

[Cyberyeti]

We use the voidwood principle with GSF so 5♠ would be GSF in hearts, but we don't play the responses that distinguish between K and A so it wouldn't help, I'd bid 5♦ voidwood and not know if it was K or A so settle for 6.

[Codo]

Be happy with the blast to 6 ♥- you won imps with this approach and that is no big surprise. If you tell the opps everything, they will know when to sacrifice. Now, they had to guess and guessed wrong.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Better yet ( because of the known 12 card fit ) -- from the recent thread:

http://www.bridgebas...599#entry672599

When ♥ are agreed, 5S! ( over 3D here ) can be used as Josephine which allows room to identify which top honor:

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-08, 11:31, said:

5NT = zilch
6C = ♥Q
6D = ♥K
6H = ♥A
7H = 2 of 3

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-08, 16:15, said:

Better yet ( because of the known 12 card fit ) -- from the recent thread:

http://www.bridgebas...599#entry672599

When ♥ are agreed, 5S! ( over 3D here ) can be used as Josephine which allows room to identify which top honor:

Not sure how standard this scheme of responses is.

0
Q
K or A
K or A and extra length

is also in use by some people.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-08, 17:06, said:

Not sure how standard this scheme of responses is.

0
Q
K or A
K or A and extra length

is also in use by some people.

Not sure what is "standard" either.... so you need prior agreement .

[Zelandakh]

Some other options are:-

5NT = any 1 (6♣ asks which)
6♣ = 2 including the Q (6♦ asks)
6♦ = AK
6♥ = none
higher bids = AKQ + side feature

which also distinguishes between AK, AQ and KQ but does not allow stopping in 5NT nor does it find extra length,

and

5NT = A (6♣ asks if extra length)
6♣ = K (6♦ asks if extra length)
6♦ = Q
6♥ = none
6♠ = KQ
6NT = AQ
7m = AK + side feature
7♥ = AK without minor suit side feature

which distinguishes between the honours combinations and also checks back for extra length opposite the ace or king. Again, the disadvantage of not being able to stop in 5NT is there.

I think Cyber's scheme can also be trivially improved by reversing the Q and A/K responses to allow for a 6♦ ask for distinguishing which.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-09, 02:49, said:

I think Cyber's scheme can also be trivially improved by reversing the Q and A/K responses to allow for a 6♦ ask for distinguishing which.

I agree, the reason it's done like that is for simplicity/ease of memory when you run bids together if say you bid 5N with hearts agreed.

In fact, spades agreed, over 5N:

6♣ A/K 6♦ asks
6♦ A/K and extra length 6♥ says bid 7 with A
6♥ Q
6♠ 0

is probably optimal

[Fluffy]

the only way to reach grand from east's point of view is to bid 3♠ and then use some form of voidwood in spades, no asking question after hearts have been fit will tell you how many loosers you have unless you partner has both ♥AK.

I would take my chaces that if partner only has 5 hearts one of them is the ace and blast 7♥. Specially if the opponents bid 7♦

[Rossoneri]

I am guessing 5♦ for Voidwood, though I quite like the practical approach taken at the table.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-09, 03:18, said:

In fact, spades agreed, over 5N:

6♣ A/K 6♦ asks
6♦ A/K and extra length 6♥ says bid 7 with A
6♥ Q
6♠ 0

is probably optimal

I am sure you noticed that this is functionally identical to Scheme 2 in Post #9. Only the order of questions asked (honour type versus extra length) has been reversed. There is a very small theoretical advantage to sorting by honour first since this allows you to show 2 extra cards with an ace but this is really minimal. It is more a matter of how you find it more logical to split initially. One change I would consider making with your scheme is to reverse the 6♣ and 6♦ responses - that would allow you to do the same. An alternative would be to keep it the same but make a 6♥ bid after ... - 5NT - 6♣ - 6♦ show something like KJT. That might be enough to make up for not having the queen...

[cargobeep]

Offtopic a bit here...

A 12 card trump fit is extremely unusual. But I've been lucky enough to have a 13-card fit

[ggwhiz]

I'm not so sure the discussion should be about getting to 6 or 7♥ as opposed to what to do over 7♦.

My tendancy is to do something slow, walking the dog like 3♠ over 3♦ to gather clues (like non support followed by 5nt on hearts), setting up a forcing pass etc. but I'm weird and if I ever got non-spade support would probably shoot 7♥ in most cases.

[aguahombre]

We would have no problem with this hand. Holding 12 trumps, the missing is always the Ace. We are merely gambling on the spade suit. The slower we go, the more likely we will have to concern ourselves with a 7D sac. Give opener one shot at it with 6H right now.

Perhaps your scientific opponents at the other table told your teammates they were making exactly six.