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need explanation bidding after 1nt with opps interfering

#1 User is offline   fant0mas 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:53

you play in an individual tourney (I think normal standard is SAYC), red (E-W) vs white (N-S),
Bidding:
N E S W

P 1NT 2 X


in this case, what means that double from West (how points,distribution,ecc).

thanks
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#2 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:12

His points and distribution are unknown. You don't need to know, as he has taken the decision to make a penalty double, and you have no choice but abide by it.

There are other treatments, of course, such as a game invitation in NT (consider it as a transfer to 2NT), or a takeout to another suit, as he might make with a 1444 distribution, but I think these would require agreement. With no discussion and an unknown partner, I assume penalty.
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:40

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-September-27, 10:12, said:

With no discussion and an unknown partner, I assume penalty.


Having run into this far too many times, and having had obvious disaster far too many times, I now ensure I discuss this sequence with all new partners :)

I play in England where we play Acol rather than SAYC. Acol's traditional treatment of this X is penalties, but the Standard English Modern Acol card actually defines it as takeout, and whilst I'm happy they did that because takeout is far more useful than penalty in this situation, you can see how having two "standard" meanings can lead to confusion!

ahydra
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:52

SAYC is the Yellow Card produced by the ACBL. It specifies that when a suit is bid over a 1NT opener, systems are off, all "bids" are natural and that a cuebid of that suit is a forcing takeout. The Yellow Card is silent about doubles, so we don't really know if partner just considers it a "bid".

However you decide to interpret it with an unknown partner and undiscussed, you might guess wrong. It is an excellent question to ask a partner in advance.

The expert standard seems to be that this double is take-out, but that won't be of much help to you in the given conditions.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#5 User is offline   fant0mas 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:31

thank you all
if it's penalty or take-out i think it's necessary to have "some" points ....
that would be a minimum number of points required for double or not ?

thanks
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#6 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 14:48

View Postfant0mas, on 2012-September-27, 12:31, said:

thank you all
if it's penalty or take-out i think it's necessary to have "some" points ....
that would be a minimum number of points required for double or not ?

thanks

For a penalty double, not much, ktxxx of spades and nothing else would be enough. You can't have to many points otherwise at this vulnerability you would find your way to 3nt.

For a takeout, if you have extreme distribution, again not much, zero could be enough with some distributions. But for a more typical distribution, you are forcing to the 3 level vulnerable so probably 7+. No upper limit as you will get to bid again after your partner takes it out.
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 02:50

As other have said the traditional meaning of a double after partner has made a natural NT bid is penalty. That is also true in America as it was one of Culbertson's rules for doubles. However, at higher levels it is generally more common (but not universal) to play this double as take-out. For a penalty double you need only believe that the opponents' contract is going down and you have "value" in doubling. What this value is depends somewhat on the vulnerability and scoring. Partner will almost never remove this double. A take-out double is different thing and definitions vary. Some play it as merely competitive and can therefore have a 0 count with 1444 or 04(45) shape. Others prefer partner to be able to convert the double to penalties with a suitable hand and therefore prefer that double shows some values. This is a matter for agreement and both approaches have pros and cons. I have also heard of an approach where double shows precisely 2 spades with some values. This double might better be described as optional than take-out and is effectively the extreme form of the value-showing take-out double described above. Overall I do not believe there is as yet any consensus on the best way of playing this double over a strong NT (someone correct me if I am wrong).
(-: Zel :-)
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#8 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-October-02, 03:30

I would "always" treat this double as take out.
Three reasons:
1. It is simply better. :rolleyes:
2. It is common where I live.
3- and most important: If he has a penalty double, we may survive if I bid now- he can bid 3 NT. If I pass now without spaders and he has a take out double, I have a really bad board already.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
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