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the true purpose of a carbon tax

#41 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 07:06

View Postawm, on 2012-September-27, 23:25, said:

At this point it seems like the main problem is that people who would spend money don't have money to spend. This perpetuates a lack of demand,


Everything you wrote after this was unnecessary This is the whole problem. If only there was an institution that was capable of printing money and injecting it into the economy to prop up aggregate demand. That would be free.

Oh wait, there is, they just aren't doing a very good job.

Fiscal policy works, but governments aren't very good at actually doing it. Monetary policy works better because it spreads the extra money out around the economy and avoids the distortions that are typical when governments try to increase their spending rapidly. Sensible infrastructure investment takes years of planning, for example. If you want to hire more teachers you first have to train more teachers. Possibly build more teacher training colleges etc.

The only real insight needed to understand nominal shocks, is that "prices clear markets". In the real world, everyone one is prepared to buy things at some price, and we are never so far out of whack in production that there is not a price that clears inventories. If people arent buying something, it means that the price is wrong. If you make it cheaper, more people will buy it. If this happens to the whole economy at once, we call it a nominal shock, and the response should be to change the price of money until people are buying stuff again. The purpose of money is to facilitate economic activity, you should print the amount that maximises economic activity. Since the value of a dollar is basically (All output)/(All dollars spent = NGDP), we see that nominal shocks (changes in NGDP) are really changes in the price of money. So change it back. :)

If you want to know why NGDP fell, well that is a more difficult question, but the why is not too important in determining the correct policy response. I think the best explanation of why it fell is provided by the collapse of the market in CDO's. There was a market with a daily volume in the trillions of dollars, and then there wasnt. Since items that can be exchanged for cash at face value are money, this represented a collapse in the money supply, and this fed through into a collapse in NGDP. If you prefer to think in terms of inflation, this represented a severe deflationary shock. Deflation makes debt harder to handle, and this is basically what drove the banks under. Then the banks started raising liquidity by sucking cash out of what you would call the `real' economy. Thus the deflationary shock in finance was translated into the real economy. The ideal early response is a cash injection into the banks, in return for a share of the profits later, before the deflationary pressure pushed out into the real economy. Now, the ideal response is to inject cash into the real economy, via QE, which will eventually feed into the banking sector and fill up the gaping hole in their liquidity.

Finally, the reason it is still going on, is that wages are downards sticky. For example, the chicago teachers did not say that `look, mr Rahm, we realise inflation has undershot, and that our pay now buys 8% more consumption than it was supposed to when we agreed our last pay deal five years ago, and so we should start our negotations with a 8% pay cut.'. Of course, consumption is what matters. Low inflation is crippling chicago's budget, as all its public employees are getting paid more than their negotiations were meant to pay them. If you look at the chicago balance sheet, it will look like revenues are down, but of course this is just the money illusion. Real GDP has not changed nearly as much as revenue projections would suggest, as money is just worth more now.

Here is a nice graph of sticky wages:
Posted Image


The blue line is average hourly wages, the red line is RGDP, both in 2003$. That tiny down turn in the blue line's gradient is the effect of "wage renormalisation".

At least now that the Fed is taking steps to do suitable policy, there is a pretty good chance that the red line will start to catch up to the red line over the coming months.
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#42 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 15:40

View Postawm, on 2012-September-27, 23:25, said:

At this point it seems like the main problem is that people who would spend money don't have money to spend. This perpetuates a lack of demand, which keep unemployment high.


View Postphil_20686, on 2012-September-28, 07:06, said:

Everything you wrote after this was unnecessary This is the whole problem.

then why doesn't the fed, during the next "quantive easing" just print money and give it to the folks who are dying to spend it? since, i guess, you're against just paying off china with it
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#43 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 16:04

View Postluke warm, on 2012-September-28, 15:40, said:

then why doesn't the fed, during the next "quantive easing" just print money and give it to the folks who are dying to spend it? since, i guess, you're against just paying off china with it

QE is effectively the same thing as printing money and who says the bankers are not dying to spend it. They need some way to keep their multi million dollar a year compensation packages afloat, they have proved incapable of keeping those compensation packages afloat through constructive contribution to society.
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#44 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 20:40

All I know is, the more deficit, the bigger the debt gets. Fourteen trillion dollars is a very scary number. Ivory tower economists tell me it doesn't matter, but I don't believe 'em.
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#45 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 21:30

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-September-28, 20:40, said:

All I know is, the more deficit, the bigger the debt gets. Fourteen trillion dollars is a very scary number. Ivory tower economists tell me it doesn't matter, but I don't believe 'em.

Numbers like these are arbitrary, it is only meaningful in comparison to something, like percentage of gnp.

http://en.wikipedia....cDebtTriade.PNG
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#46 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2012-September-29, 06:01

robert shiller explains fundamental problem of using debt to gdp ratio as a guideline: shiller's text
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#47 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-September-29, 09:53

blackshoe said:

1348886424[/url]' post='670379']
All I know is, the more deficit, the bigger the debt gets. Fourteen trillion dollars is a very scary number. Ivory tower economists tell me it doesn't matter, but I don't believe 'em.


It's not that they don't matter, it's that they are unrelated to the short term problems facing the economy. I am in favour of governments cutting their structural deficits. I fully believe that the Fed has the power to fully offset cuts in spending with appropriate policy, provided they are not done with undue haste. I also believe that fiscal policy would work to drag one out of a depression, it is just not as efficient as monetary policy, and that it could be scuppers if they fed did ot support such measures with appropriate policy.
Regarding QE, that does not 'give money to the banks'. You print money and buy Treasuries from whoever holds them and is prepared to sell them. The primary benefactor is the tax payer, since the benefit both from lower interest rates on its stock of debt, and any profit made by the fed on its holdings are returned to the treasury. There is a Small. Secondary benefit from those who hold treasuries, since a large buyer will increase the price, but this is marginal. Prices have not changed much due to QE, and if it's successful bond prices will fall.
Thus the primary beneficiaries of QE are the public, even excluding the fact that it will lead to faster economic recovery, they Fed is making buckets of money which is returned to the taxpayer. :)
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#48 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-September-29, 17:54

fully believe that the Fed has the power to fully offset cuts in spending with appropriate policy, provided they are not done with undue haste


would you care to elaborate?

I thought you are running out of room at the short end of interest rates?

I suppose you could go to neg rates at the short end.
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#49 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 02:16

mike777 said:

1348962842[/url]' post='670508']
fully believe that the Fed has the power to fully offset cuts in spending with appropriate policy, provided they are not done with undue haste


would you care to elaborate?

I thought you are running out of room at the short end of interest rates?

I suppose you could go to neg rates at the short end.


So interest rates are just one reasonably convenient way to do monetary policy. At its most basic, the fed could print money, go to the shops, and buy stuff. Even if they subsequently burnt everything they bought and had Ben bernanke dance naked in its glowing embers, they would still have increased demand for stuff.
This argument basically applies to anything that the fed could buy, but obviously it has a secondary aim of doing stimulus in a productive way that benefits the tax payer, so it buys treasuries, and mortgage backed securities.
Ps note that QE three caused the interest rate on treasuries to go up not down, as interest rates are partly liked to expectations of future growth.
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