BBO Discussion Forums: Learning Kickback - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Learning Kickback 2 mistakes I make

#1 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2004-November-22, 01:34

Learning Kickback

With only limited experience, say 300 hands.

I have noticed 2 problems/mistakes I keep making as weaker/limited hand.

1) Make bid at 4 level thinking we are in cuebid situation and I am weak hand and it is really the start of Kickback.

2) Make bid supporting partner's first bid suit at 4 level, when I am weak hand, and it is Kickback for partner's second bid suit.

As a closer to beginner player would think it is better for stronger/undefined hand to "ask" and weaker/limited to "tell" the vast majority of time. I understand the end result of this is that only one hand is really bidding hand, the weaker one.
0

#2 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-November-22, 05:09

i can't recall ever having that sort of problem using kickback, but why not post a few n/s hands so we can reconstruct the auction? i'm personally having trouble picturing your questions
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#3 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-November-22, 06:51

kickback is a problematic convention because its hard to handle, i tried it and had my own misunderstandings, i think its better to play a different convention even tho kickback it might be thereticaly a bit better.
4c always asks or 4m (support) always asks are simpler and will do the job.
0

#4 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2004-November-22, 08:39

Yes, except for , I wouldn't use Kickback. The way I play in natural systems are:

with a m-fit: 4m = RKC m (minorwood)
with a -fit: 4 = RKC (Kickback)
with a -fit: 4NT = RKC

With a minor-fit, it's easy to recognize your RKC. With , it's usually quite clear what you want to say with 4...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#5 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-November-22, 11:27

Mike:

A few months ago, we started to 'codify' kickback:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...?showtopic=4672

I hope the discussion continues....
"Phil" on BBO
0

#6 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2004-November-22, 12:20

Thanks will check out URL

1H...1NT
3D...4H
5C...6H

At the table I bid 4H thinking was weak sign off and 5c was cue looking for ace of spades so i bid 6H. Turns out 4h was kickback for D oops.
AXX-JX=XX=KXXXXX

Of course I could have rebid 3nt or 3h and avoided all of this in first place but.....
0

#7 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,745
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2004-November-22, 16:03

1 1NT
3 ...

We play this Game Forcing. Our structure after this is:

3 Preference - sometimes extreme false preference when nothing else is sensible.

3 Some sort of NT probe or an advanced cue for diamonds - we don't make an advanced cue for hearts since we can make a simple forcing 3 bid.

3NT to play

4 natural I suppose

4 willing to cooperate with a diamond slam investigation - after this opener's 4 is kickback.

4 to play.

4 kickback for hearts - although I cannot imagine a limited 1NT making this call.

I am not sure that this is the best example but basically with kickback we have found that we need to make it clear which suit is agreed. Having made it clear then we have had few if any problems with kickback in two or more years of playing.

In some auctions where suit agreement is not possible we have added some specialized 'general' cues below game to set trumps. These cues do not promise a control in the suit bid but set a particular suit as trumps so that we can use kickback later.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-November-22, 17:58

yeah like wayne said, the 3 bid had to be game forcing... the way i played kickback, a jump (in this case 4) is kickback for diamonds... there really isn't much reason to jump in a gf auction otherwise... guess it all depends on the nature of the 3 bid
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#9 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-November-22, 18:49

I wouldn't take a 4 call in this auction as kickback. I think its either fast arrival (weak) - but that begs the question why this hand didn't raise hearts in the 1st place, instead of monkeying around with 1N. I like 4 to be a weakish hand that wants to play 4 and 3 to be either a forced preference or slammish.

Further, I don't like it when the weak hand takes control, so I don't like 4 as kickback. Isn't it simpler to just raise partner's suit?

This post sort of harkens back to my "Why I hate 2/1" thread, where we talked about the headaches of a phony 3 jump on a fragment.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#10 User is offline   keylime 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: FD TEAM
  • Posts: 2,734
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Miami, FL, USA
  • Interests:Motorsports, cricket, disc golf, and of course - bridge. :-)

  Posted 2004-November-22, 22:11

Our slam rules are as follows:

4m when there are NO opposing bids = minorwood
4/ when the opps have gotten into it - Redwood (minor suit KB)
4 = RKC for hearts, unless spades were shown
4NT = RKC for spades OR when two suits are agreed to (6A-RKCB)

Hope this helps.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users