[Charlie Yu]

My personal worst treatment was openind 2D as 18-19 bal or weak majors. After a few impossible 2NT we switch to weak only.

[ahydra]

Ran into a weird one the other day. Opps played a 5cM system with 1♣ = "denies a five card major", to which a response of 1♦ = "denies a five card major".

Maybe there's some logic to it, I don't know (1C-1M can now be raised with 3 cards - but how is that better than a standard system?)

This was from the same tournament where my teammates were playing some sort of FNJ-after-double convention. If you have responding values, 1M-(X)-any = 3-card support for opener + a suit, XX = denies 3c support for opener. (To make it more interesting, this is in a 4cM context.) Although it looks odd, perhaps it's a better use of XX than the standard "penalty interest"?

I've played a couple of games with a "4C is always gerber" partner. Sure enough, we didn't have any misunderstandings and it all worked out. So I say, why stop at 4C? Playing in 4D is just as bad, right?

ahydra

[WellSpyder]

 ahydra, on 2013-February-14, 08:19, said:

Ran into a weird one the other day. Opps played a 5cM system with 1♣ = "denies a five card major", to which a response of 1♦ = "denies a five card major".

Maybe there's some logic to it, I don't know (1C-1M can now be raised with 3 cards - but how is that better than a standard system?)

I've also come across people who think "5-card majors" applies to responder as well as opener. The biggest problem it seemed to create was over disclosure, since those doing it seemed to think it was just normal, and that oppo should be aware that 1D - 1N might contain 2 4-card majors, or 1H - 1N could easily still have 4 ♠s.

[Zelandakh]

 ahydra, on 2013-February-14, 08:19, said:

Ran into a weird one the other day. Opps played a 5cM system with 1♣ = "denies a five card major", to which a response of 1♦ = "denies a five card major".

It might be worth looking into Montreal Relay. This sounds like a variation of it.

[aguahombre]

 WellSpyder, on 2013-February-14, 08:27, said:

I've also come across people who think "5-card majors" applies to responder as well as opener. The biggest problem it seemed to create was over disclosure, since those doing it seemed to think it was just normal, and that oppo should be aware that 1D - 1N might contain 2 4-card majors, or 1H - 1N could easily still have 4 ♠s.

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-14, 08:49, said:

It might be worth looking into Montreal Relay. This sounds like a variation of it.

"Variation", undoubtedly. But, the pairs in WellSpyder's story ---and over here---who do these things would never have heard of the system which bears some resemblance to how they bid.

They half-listen to teachers or run with a concept they think is being used by others. Hands in a certain range bid NT, period. Responding 1NT to 1H with 6=2=3=2 is not considered a variation of anything; and why would they alert such a natural response? Disclosure of unusual methods requires first that they know it is unusual.

[RMB1]

Forrester/Gold play 1C-1M as 5 cards and 1C-1D = relay (not 5M / not 5m GF)

[barmar]

 WellSpyder, on 2013-February-14, 08:27, said:

I've also come across people who think "5-card majors" applies to responder as well as opener.

Every time I've encountered that, it was a beginner who just didn't understand.

[fromageGB]

 ahydra, on 2013-February-14, 08:19, said:

Ran into a weird one the other day. Opps played a 5cM system with 1♣ = "denies a five card major", to which a response of 1♦ = "denies a five card major".

This is not uncommon, and is nothing to do with failure to understand anything. It is a perfectly playable way of responding to find all the 5-3 and 4-4 major fits, with 1NT available when you have neither. Responder bids 1♦ with diamonds or a 4 card major, or 1♥/♠ with a 5 card major, or 1NT with none of the above. After 1♦ it is all natural, opener and responder showing 4 card majors upwards.

If responder bids 1♥/♠, of course opener supports on 3.

Contrast this with other non-transfer walsh methods, where a 1M response may be 4 or 5 card, opener has 3 cards, and responder is weak. You either play in 4-3 fits when 1NT is better, or play in 1NT when the 5-3 fit is better. It sounds like a big improvement to me.

[fromageGB]

Technically speaking, 1♦ is a relay, but most people can't tell the difference between a transfer, a relay, and a puppet. Describing it as "denies a 5 card major" is fair enough.

[gwnn]

fromage, it is not a 'big improvement.' You find your 5-3 fits brilliantly but you lose some 4-4 fits if RHO bids 2m over 1♦, wreaking havoc.

[fromageGB]

 ahydra, on 2013-February-14, 08:19, said:

I've played a couple of games with a "4C is always gerber" partner. Sure enough, we didn't have any misunderstandings and it all worked out. So I say, why stop at 4C? Playing in 4D is just as bad, right?

Didn't you know? Maybe your partner forgot to tell you, but if 4♣ is always gerber, then bypassing this and bidding 4♦ is always exclusion gerber, where you logically work out from the bidding which suit is to be excluded.

[Zelandakh]

 fromageGB, on 2013-February-15, 09:40, said:

Technically speaking, 1♦ is a relay, but most people can't tell the difference between a transfer, a relay, and a puppet. Describing it as "denies a 5 card major" is fair enough.

Fair enough if it were true. But most of the time it is not true; it also denies whatever hands are bid with responses of 1NT and higher. You have a responsibility to disclose your methods fully.

[fromageGB]

 gwnn, on 2013-February-15, 09:43, said:

fromage, it is not a 'big improvement.' You find your 5-3 fits brilliantly but you lose some 4-4 fits if RHO bids 2m over 1♦, wreaking havoc.

Funnily enough, you have found my defence to their methods - get in the bidding if you possibly can, 2nd seat, too. Note the 1♦ relay method is played also by one of the best pairs in the top club in this area. Many times there is no opposition bidding, and when there is, it reverts to standard takeout double etc, so little is lost. Not a patch on TWalsh, of course, but if I didn't play that, I would play this.

Edit - Of course it is not that enticing bidding a minor in 4th seat, as the 1♣ opener could have long clubs, and responder would also bid 1♦ with long diamonds.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2013-February-15, 10:03

[fromageGB]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-15, 09:52, said:

Fair enough if it were true. But most of the time it is not true; it also denies whatever hands are bid with responses of 1NT and higher. You have a responsibility to disclose your methods fully.

Don't blame me, I don't play it. But I would be happy with the description. It is 100% true, 100% of the time. Certainly a fuller description is better, such as adding "may have diamonds or a 4 card major", but you don't have to identify all the hand types that it denies. If asker wants to know, he can pose follow-up questions.

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps I should try describing every bid my partner makes as "0 or more diamonds". It is 100% true, 100% of the time. I am sure I do not have to identify all of the hand types it denies; the asker can pose up follow-up questions if they want to know.

[PhilKing]

 gwnn, on 2013-February-15, 09:43, said:

fromage, it is not a 'big improvement.' You find your 5-3 fits brilliantly but you lose some 4-4 fits if RHO bids 2m over 1♦, wreaking havoc.

The way Forrester/Gold play it, they are more likely to find the 4-4 fit if you intervene. If you just pass, they bid 1♥ (various) 1♠ (relay) 1NT (11-13 balanced) and the 4-4 fit only emerges if responder can move. They partly solve it by bidding 1♣-1♦-1♠ on 4-4 and they can bid 1NT over 1♥ to show four hearts, I believe.

[gwnn]

I often meet Montreal Relay pairs and after the sequence 1C-1D; 1M-1NT; (perhaps some more bidding) usually ask whether responder has now promised the other major. I usually get one of two replies:
1) puzzlement (this has never occurred to them before)
2) 'yes of course'/'most of the time'/'yes thats what I would assume'

It used to piss me slightly off that all these pairs can describe 1D as 'denies a 5cM' but it's just that they don't know any better..

[squealydan]

I played at the club with a random newcomer of undetermined strength, but who claimed to have played in the top division of her previous club. So I let her fill out the card which looked fairly standard Acol, weak NT, 4-card majors, absolutely routine or so I thought.

A few hands in she opened 1♥, and in a competitive auction, rebid 3♦. I competed to 4♥, which went a couple light on what turned out to be only a 4-3 fit. I checked her hand which was ♠ ATx ♥ KQxx ♦ KJxx ♣ xx

Which led to the following conversation :

Me - is there a reason you didn't open that 1NT?
Partner - Oh, I never open 1NT when I have a four card major.
Me (checking card) - .... okayyyyyy. But you wrote Stayman down on the system card over 1NT.
Partner - Yes.... I don't tend to use it very much!

[Fujiko]

There's a pair in my region I've run into a few times which does not open 1NT at all.
"What's your 1NT range?" "We don't open it."

[aguahombre]

At least they admit it. I have incurred pairs who struggle for opening bids and rebids, re-inventing the wheel each time, but just never considering a 1NT opening bid or a 1NT overcall instead of a double.