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Fit or not ?

#1 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 09:18





Does it promise a fit:
-in your partnership ?
-for most people in your area ?

Which do you think is the best agreement ?
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#2 User is offline   the_clown 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 09:33

Yes it promises a fit. I dont think it is common here, but I definitely fell that fit showing is the better agreement. The fact that I happen to play a strong club makes it even more attractive, but even in a 2/1 system, I think fit showing is clearly superior.

Even if I am not passed hand and bidding goes (1S)-2h-(2S) 3m would be fit-showing
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#3 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 10:03

In both cases, advancer is in direct seat, and also has declined a prior chance to enter the bidding. So it seems to me that fit-showing is most logical. Not sure if that is the common understanding in my area though.
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#4 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 10:57

The first one - I play as "either a good diamond suit, or diamonds + tolerance for hearts". It doesn't (necessarily) show a fit in hearts - 10x would be enough, but should definitely have 5 diamonds, if not 6.

Is there meant to be a pass between 2 and 3 on the 2nd one? I think most people would play that as "I have diamonds, forcing one round".

Or is the point that North is a passed hand? Still, I don't think 3D should promise a fit, only a maximum pass.

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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 11:08

Tolerance, not a fit.
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 11:38

No and no.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 13:07

On the first, tolerance. On the second, fit. But, that's just me and what I think is best.

As far as what people in my area think? God help you if you really want to know, and God help the person who knows.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 15:41

Hell no to me!

I know I am the biggest fit non jump hater and have been vocal on this forum for years about it, but fwiw in real life recently my partner had J9xxxx x --- KJ9xxx. He passed and it went 2H 3D 4H to him. He bid 4S. Fit non jump?! lol.

I mean I am just using specific examples to make my case and it's not a reasonable way to argue things, but there are simply some hands where you will pass and then bid without a fit, and not being able to bid with them is too unacceptable to me. There are always other ways to bid when you have a fit.


Anyways, it's probably reasonable to play 3D in your first auction as fit non jump depending on your style of overcalling/weak jump overcall. I am still passing 1S with Axx x Qxxxxx Kxx over 1S, and then I am of course bidding 3D.

The second one is completely unreasonable to play as fit non jump im very strong o. So I think I promise neither a fit nor a tolerance.

In the 2nd auction, surely we can fail to make a weak 2 or weak 3 with 4 spades and 6 or 7 diamonds. Or we can choose not to preempt a bad 6 card suit with outside cards and then want to bid. There are just a ridiculous amount of hands where we can bid this way, what is the point of making ourselves unable to bid our suit naturally in order to gain a fit non jump? How much are we gaining by doing this instead of raising hearts? It is quite a small gain imo, especially when we are on lead.
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#9 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 15:47

to preempt the: but we can make a negative X and then bid 3D arguments, sometimes partner will bid 3H over the negative double, sometimes they will raise, and we have never bid our long suit/possible fit (eg if we have 6 or 7 diamodns and partner has 6-3 in the reds, guess what, he's bidding 3H over the negative X). Also, the situation is worse over clubs, and I don't know of anyone who differentiates between 3D and 3C here.
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#10 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:11

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-August-23, 15:41, said:

Hell no to me!

I know I am the biggest fit non jump hater and have been vocal on this forum for years about it, but fwiw in real life recently my partner had J9xxxx x --- KJ9xxx. He passed and it went 2H 3D 4H to him. He bid 4S. Fit non jump?! lol.


There is minor case for a major after a minor to play not promising a fit. This game is about the majors. Did your partner find you with spades on this board?


View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-August-23, 15:41, said:

Anyways, it's probably reasonable to play 3D in your first auction as fit non jump depending on your style of overcalling/weak jump overcall. I am still passing 1S with Axx x Qxxxxx Kxx over 1S, and then I am of course bidding 3D.

The second one is completely unreasonable to play as fit non jump im very strong o. So I think I promise neither a fit nor a tolerance.

In the 2nd auction, surely we can fail to make a weak 2 or weak 3 with 4 spades and 6 or 7 diamonds. Or we can choose not to preempt a bad 6 card suit with outside cards and then want to bid. There are just a ridiculous amount of hands where we can bid this way, what is the point of making ourselves unable to bid our suit naturally in order to gain a fit non jump? How much are we gaining by doing this instead of raising hearts? It is quite a small gain imo, especially when we are on lead.


Yes, but were you able to land on your feet.

xx, Jxx, KQxx, Kxxx. This is the type of hand Robson/Segal recommends for non jump fit bid. They have the higher ranking strain. We have support for partner but would rather have a diamond lead against 3.
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#11 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:39

View Postjogs, on 2012-August-23, 17:11, said:



We have support for partner but would rather have a diamond lead against 3.


Cool we can lead a diamond then if we want
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#12 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:40

Also forgot to add fit showing only applies to bids up to 4. 4 and 4 out of the blue is to play.
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#13 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:44

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-August-23, 17:39, said:

Cool we can lead a diamond then if we want

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-23, 09:18, said:



View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-23, 09:18, said:





Think partner is on lead in one of these auctions. Easier to tell at the table.
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#14 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:44

at the 2/3 level any passed hand that introduces a new suit should be making a fit
showing hand. It is far too unlikely a passed hand will have the quailty and/or length
required to suddenly introduce a new suit of their own especially if it is a level higher
that the original overcall. This is aimed primarily at passed hands only. If there has
never been an opportunity to bid I feel the ability to warn p of a potential misfit
(and quite possibly a safer place to play) is far more important then trying to reach
a thin game based on luckily finding a double fit.

yes and yes to these examples fit showing.
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#15 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 17:51

View Postjogs, on 2012-August-23, 17:44, said:

Think partner is on lead in one of these auctions. Easier to tell at the table.


true i was thinking only of the second one. like i said it would be reasonable to play it in the first one and not at all in the 2nd imo.
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#16 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 18:01

Certainly it shows a fit for me. It makes little sense not to enter the auction immediately with some of the example hands given.
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#17 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-August-24, 02:28

View Postjogs, on 2012-August-23, 17:44, said:

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-23, 09:18, said:






Think partner [the heart bidder] is on lead [vs 3] in one of these auctions. Easier to tell at the table.

Which one of the two were you thinking of?

Rik
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#18 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-24, 05:04

Quote

This is the type of hand Robson/Segal recommends for non jump fit bid.


Really ? I remember some examples from the book and those were real suits with fit. Why not play some art rais here instead of taking two useful natural bids to show similar thing ?
One can play 2NT as fit showing good raise and 3C/3D as natural. If I were to play 3C/3D as fit showing then 3card raise and 4card raise is certainly more useful than suit+fit.

Quote

Yes, but were you able to land on your feet.


That's the whole point. With support you can use 2NT for example and land on your feet as you just conveyed the most important information about your hand (the support) while loses from not being able to show yout 6-7 carder are much more painful.

Quote

Think partner is on lead in one of these auctions. Easier to tell at the table.


If a guy on your right (ie the one who bids just before you) bids a suit then you are leading !

Anywya, in my country opinions are split. I feel most people play it as fit showing which seems so ridiculous to me that I needed to make a thread here :)
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#19 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2012-August-24, 06:21

3D to 2H reopen: certainly long diamonds with no
suggestion in hearts. What chance of game when
partner did not choose a strong reopen? This is
a partial fight where 3D might make or be cheap.
3D after 1H opener: help suit on the way to 3H -
maybe.
Try this. Transfers in both auctions.
Now transfer then fit gets a Fit-bid shown.
Transfer then quits gets long diamonds in.
Transfer then quits gets a lead-director in.
Transfer then NT has a stop, needs a fitting
honor for long suit tricks.
Transfer into partner's suit is a good defensive
tricks raise. That frees direct raises for purely
how many high preempt or make.
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#20 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2012-August-24, 08:19

Quote

Which one of the two were you thinking of?

Rik


At the table if LHO would be declarer, partner would be on lead.
The point is the bid(3 or 3) is warning partner not to
lead from AQ. I do not have the king.

Quote

One can play 2NT as fit showing good raise and 3C/3D as natural. If I were to play 3C/3D as fit showing then 3card raise and 4card raise is certainly more useful than suit+fit.


No, that would defeat much of the advantage of the fit bid. We want
partner to know our second suit. The non jump fit bid is usually
3-card support. It could be 4-card support with a flat hand also.
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