[aguahombre]

The expectations for decisions such as this one do change, as we see here, depending on whether your opponents are of a level where they will not raise partner's 2-bid with support and then think about competing over a game or slam.

I never assume that level when trying to solve a forum question, unless it is given.

[Vampyr]

I assume you have 3♥ as forcing, and 2NT followed by 3♥ as invitational, available? I think that the fact that partner didn't go any of these routes indicates a pretty poor hand opposite.

[rmnka447]

I think Vampyr makes a very good point about Lebensohl 2 NT still being on and offering advancer many options to show hands with all levels of values.

4 ♥ must show a hand with a few values and lots of ♥.

But the hand does illustrate that it's sometimes just as important to consider what partner didn't bid as much as what was bid.

[han]

ArtK78, on 2012-August-20, 08:11, said:

I bid 5♥, thinking that I had a much better hand than a mere balancing double

Of course I agree that your hand was better than a minimum balancing double, much better. But that is not a good reason to force to slam! As I said earlier, I think you have to think about different hands that partner might have, and I believe that if you do, you would probably also come to the conclusion that pass is better. Of course it isn't always easy to guess what partner might have for his 4H bid.

[JLOGIC]

I'm in the lalldonn/han camp on this one

[FrancesHinden]

Vampyr, on 2012-August-21, 15:21, said:

I assume you have 3♥ as forcing, and 2NT followed by 3♥ as invitational, available? I think that the fact that partner didn't go any of these routes indicates a pretty poor hand opposite.

Why would you assume that?
Even with lebensohl on (which it is for me) these are neither the standard, nor in my opinion, optimal uses of the two sequences.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-August-29, 08:52, said:

Why would you assume that?
Even with lebensohl on (which it is for me) these are neither the standard, nor in my opinion, optimal uses of the two sequences.

So what are the optimal uses in your opinion ? we use PFA so reverse them, but use the same two meanings.

[lalldonn]

I want to note that I don't think 5♥ here says (or should say) "bid slam with a diamond control". I would just mean it as "I have a slam try without a diamond control", i.e. partner would need both a diamond control and a hand that wants to accept an invitation to go. Clee mentioned this earlier in the thread but I think it bears elaboration. A slam invitation without a control must be at least 10 times more likely than a hand that wants to insist on slam opposite a control, and on top of that there is no other satisfactory way to bid the invitation (unless you play 5♦ doesn't promise a control, which seems horrible since then you can't distinguish if the partnership has one or not).

It's all moot to me, looking back I still know I would pass.

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-29, 10:21, said:

So what are the optimal uses in your opinion ? we use PFA so reverse them, but use the same two meanings.

The chances of partner having a forcing 3H bid (i.e. game forcing with 5+ hearts) are, roughly, zero. Somehow he forgot to overcall with an opening bid and a 5-card major?

We play:

3D (immediate cue) as a game force of some description which in practice on this auction will have at least one 4-card major.
3H as invitational with 5 hearts
2NT then 3H as invitational with 4 hearts
2NT then 3D as invitational with 4-4 majors

We play the same after 2D x P ? because we think it's more important to distinguish between a 4- and 5- card major invite, but the best agreement is more debateable, because you can at least have a forcing hand with a major here.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-September-01, 06:30, said:

The chances of partner having a forcing 3H bid (i.e. game forcing with 5+ hearts) are, roughly, zero. Somehow he forgot to overcall with an opening bid and a 5-card major?

So partner has to overcall 2♥ on xxxxx ? I agree it's pretty unlikely with the doubler as good as he is, but do you really want to overcall on say KJ, xxxxx, Axx, AJx under an unlimited hand that is opposite a limited one. I should probably have said "game force" as what we do is to GF opposite what would be a second seat ToX, if we've reopened lighter than that, it is passable.

[phil_20686]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-September-01, 08:26, said:

So partner has to overcall 2♥ on xxxxx ? I agree it's pretty unlikely with the doubler as good as he is, but do you really want to overcall on say KJ, xxxxx, Axx, AJx under an unlimited hand that is opposite a limited one. I should probably have said "game force" as what we do is to GF opposite what would be a second seat ToX, if we've reopened lighter than that, it is passable.

I would definitely overcall. It much safer to overcall a weak two than it is to overcall an opening bid. I would overcall 2d with lots of hearts hands that I would not overcall 1S with.