[pclayton]

Do you think good/bad 2N applies here?

MP's, all vul:

West......North.....East.....South
1♥....1♠....Dbl....Pass
2♦....2♠....?

[inquiry]

You the person making the negative double is now separating a "good" from a "bad" negative double? No, I don't think that ap;plies here. A bad negative double, you simply pass. With better hand, you can make a call...

ben

[flytoox]

I think so, esp if opp are red. You really dont want to play in 2N. Either you upgrade to bid 3N, if you think your hand is good for declarer play. Or you dbl 2S to punish them. 2N as natural here is not very useful I think, though I never try it in this scequence.

[luke warm]

wow... if i had to guess (and if you aren't playing nfb's) i'd almost believe this showed 4 diamonds and 6 clubs

[Fluffy]

It will highly depend on if you play nfb, and 2NT direct bid as natural or support.

[pclayton]

2N directly is natural for now.; but will change.

No nfb's in this partnership.

[EricK]

2NT looks to be natural with a certain double stop in ♠ but no great length (eg ♠AQ). It will also have genuine support for both minors, so partner can always retreat to 3♦ if he wishes. 2254 or 3244 distribution would be typical.

Eric

[Fluffy]

In the case 2NT would be natural at first, I beleive it is good/bad now if you play that convention.

[EricK]

Fluffy, on Nov 21 2004, 10:44 AM, said:

In the case 2NT would be natural at first, I beleive it is good/bad now if you play that convention.

If you bid 2NT as natural immediately, partner can not escape into a 4 card minor on minimum hands. By doubling first (promising both minors) and then bidding 2NT, you give partner an escape route if NT is wrong.

Eric

[inquiry]

Let' s look at this. RHO overcalled 1♠, you made a negative double asking partner to take it out. He did so, bidding a minimum 2♦ (that is he didn't jump). So let't start with "bad" hands. What do you do? You pass. Now if you are a LOTT kind of fellow, you might bid 3♦ with five, and if you had a maximum, you might bid 3♦ anyway and hope parnter doesnting have something like 4♠5♥3♦1♣.

Now, what is my rule for when are doubles takeout? It is as long as we haven't found a fitl. Among my definitions of a fit, is when partner bids a suit in response to my eallier takeout double. So here, I would play a second double as "optional", rathrer than takeout (if LHO had bid and partner had passed a second double would be takeout as we have not yet found fit). Having made a takeout double, making a second double will never be a "I got you double", so this double would be otpional. Just the sort of hand people are bidding natural 2NT on. If partner has some spades, the double can be left in. If partner is weak or short in spades, he can bid.

So if a natural 2NT is out, and if 2NT is not Good/Bad, what is it? Well ask Jimmy, he has it right as a scrambling thing, even more useful if patner had bid clubs and you had longer diamonds.

Ben

[luke warm]

right... to me this is a game force showing 4+ diamonds and 6+ clubs IF negative free bids are used... since thay aren't, it shows the same hand but isn't a game force.. of course after you bid one of his suits he can *make* it a game force easily enough

[pclayton]

This caused a (mildly) spirited debate between my favorite pard and I. I always try to push the envelope in club games with our systems, and introduce calls that aren't 100% clear just so that we can gain situational experience.

I bid 2N and he passed. His argument was that its not g/b, since with invitational values, I can make an immediate 2/1. But it seems to me that this has got to g/b to differentiate between the following types of hands:

♠xx
♥ Kx
♦ AQxx
♣ Qxxxx

and

♠ xx
♥ Kx
♦ JTxxx
♣ Kxxx

I actually held hand #2. Pard held: KQx, Txxxx, AQxx, x (With KQx in the opponents suit, you'd think he could figure it out from THAT ). I played an inglorious 2N down 4. We still won, this one one of our only bad boards of the nite

[EricK]

pclayton, on Nov 21 2004, 05:52 PM, said:

This caused a (mildly) spirited debate between my favorite pard and I. I always try to push the envelope in club games with our systems, and introduce calls that aren't 100% clear just so that we can gain situational experience.

I bid 2N and he passed. His argument was that its not g/b, since with invitational values, I can make an immediate 2/1. But it seems to me that this has got to g/b to differentiate between the following types of hands:

♠xx
♥ Kx
♦ AQxx
♣ Qxxxx

and

♠ xx
♥ Kx
♦ JTxxx
♣ Kxxx

I actually held hand #2. Pard held: KQx, Txxxx, AQxx, x (With KQx in the opponents suit, you'd think he could figure it out from THAT ). I played an inglorious 2N down 4. We still won, this one one of our only bad boards of the nite

With that hand partner should certainly bid 3♦ rather than leave 2NT in.

The trouble with a good/bad 2NT here is that there is actually no certainty that partner has 4♦ (with a 3532 hand he should certainly bid 2♦ rather than 2♥) so the bad hands risk quite a lot by going to the 3 level.

Eric

[Fluffy]

EricK, on Nov 21 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Nov 21 2004, 10:44 AM, said:

In the case 2NT would be natural at first, I beleive it is good/bad now if you play that convention.

If you bid 2NT as natural immediately, partner can not escape into a 4 card minor on minimum hands. By doubling first (promising both minors) and then bidding 2NT, you give partner an escape route if NT is wrong.

Eric

so you double to find a 4-4 minor fit, you have ♠ stopper, invitational values and a 4 card minor, and whenpartner bids the other minor you bid 2NT to show that hand...
And what when he bids your 4 card minor? if you don´t have good/bad you cannot invite when you have found the fit, unless you bid 2NT, and then why did you double and didn´t bid 2NT earlier?.

[EricK]

Fluffy, on Nov 21 2004, 07:58 PM, said:

EricK, on Nov 21 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Nov 21 2004, 10:44 AM, said:

In the case 2NT would be natural at first, I beleive it is good/bad now if you play that convention.

If you bid 2NT as natural immediately, partner can not escape into a 4 card minor on minimum hands. By doubling first (promising both minors) and then bidding 2NT, you give partner an escape route if NT is wrong.

Eric

so you double to find a 4-4 minor fit, you have ♠ stopper, invitational values and a 4 card minor, and whenpartner bids the other minor you bid 2NT to show that hand...
And what when he bids your 4 card minor? if you don´t have good/bad you cannot invite when you have found the fit, unless you bid 2NT, and then why did you double and didn´t bid 2NT earlier?.

Firstly, an immediate 2NT is almost never right. For example, would opener's rebid of 3m then be forcing or non-forcing? If non-forcing, how does he explore for game or slam on a 1-5-4-3 hand, if forcing how does he bid a minimum 55 hand? By doubling first, and then bidding 2NT, partner's 2m followed by 3m is weak, and 2m followed by eg 3♠ is strong.

Secondly, I generally wouldn't double without both minors. If I haven't got ♥ support, and my hand isn't strong enough to freely bid a minor at the 2 level, and I haven't got both minors, yet I am strong enough for 2NT, what have I got? Presumably a 10/11 point 4234 hand with a weak 4 card minor. I am not sure 2NT is going to be the correct contract on that hand. I am probably at least as well off if I pass and let partner re-open.

Eric