[phil_20686]

I would have passed 2S if rho had passed.

I would have bid 3S over 3H though. My hand is improved if they have a heart fit.

If overcaller had the K of spades as well they have a three spade bid. AKQxxx and an A is a clear 3S bid imo. (though minimum ish).

Bidding over 4H seems mad.

[mikeh]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-15, 12:19, said:

You just LOLed even though you agreed with me ("I SEE THIS AS A CLEAR 3♠ RAISE IF RHO HAD PASSED"). Just practicing your LOLs?

And if you are going to change partner's shape to make it more likely than the real shape, obv that would be 6322 not 6232.

I thought, and still think after reading your post, that you were LOL'ing at criticism of a pass over 4♥.

And why would partner's shape be more likely 6322 than 6232? I am pretty sure that the OP didn't have the opps bidding diamonds. RHO almost always has at least 3♥, which makes his likely holding somewhere between 3 and 5, inclusive. Partner will often hold only 5 spades and rarely 7 or more. I haven't done a simulation but I think it unlikely that your suggestion is valid...and if it is, it won't be by much....so let me add another LOL...to your 'obv' comment.

[lalldonn]

Is this bizarro world? No I was laughing was at a pass after 2♥ 2♠ P to you. I just reread everything, and it seems clear to me. I think you didn't back up your train far enough before reading. Start at post 16, which was in reference to posts 6-8.

Since I hadn't mentioned it, I think it's a close decision whether or not to bid over 4♥. The actual result was really unlucky regardless of what you might think of the bid, and the opponents were cold for slam as well it appears. I would probably bid, oops.

[JLOGIC]

When I read this thread first I thought it was quite close and kept going back and forth. I still basically think that, not sure what I'd do at the table but I don't mind either action.

[rduran1216]

AQ8xxx J!x xxx Ax thank you very much.

[gszes]

if your partnership feels it is fine to overcall r/w with AQxxxx xx xxx Ax
then by all means pass. Your simple overcall range is way too wide to
make any reasonable judgements and discretion is probably wiser than
valor especially at IMPS. The problem with a huge range r/w is mainly
because a sacrifice will rarely be a good idea at these colors. All actions
taken by p have to be made essentially expecting you to make your
contract.

opposite a passed p this 2s overcall has little to gain and a ton to lose
IMO a better min has been shown by others something like
AKQxxx xx xx Axx where you have closer to 7 tricks at least then the
possible damage is severly limited and if p has a near max with support
they wont hesitate to raise to game (and it will almost never get x or
slaughtered even if x)--no small consideration at imps. I am pretty sure
most of those raising are expecting a better minimum hand from p for 2s.

[phil_20686]

gszes, on 2012-August-15, 15:15, said:

if your partnership feels it is fine to overcall r/w with AQxxxx xx xxx Ax
then by all means pass. Your simple overcall range is way too wide to
make any reasonable judgements and discretion is probably wiser than
valor especially at IMPS.

opposite a passed p this 2s overcall has little to gain and a ton to lose
IMO a better min has been shown by others something like
AKQxxx xx xx Axx

????!?!?

People were suggesting AKQxxx xx xx Axx is enough to bid 3S over 2H, which should be 14-16 with a good six card suit. Overcalling with AQxxxx xx xxx Ax is completely normal. I mean you would open that hand, and it has a six card suit, and plenty of offence. This could easily just be a normal partscore deal, not every hand is about bidding game!

[aguahombre]

There is a problem with all the LOLing and the certainty of people's positions. It is the typical problem; we are each coming from a different expectation for the previous auction.

As to the LOLing of my pass of the 2S overcall, I see:

2H-2S-P in front of me and expect Righty to have some values and to be a reasonable player who would not have passed with 3 cards in the heart suit. Partner overcalled only 2S, and would have overcalled 3S or doubled with a hand likely to make game if I have this normal array. More important to me is that if Righty as passed, my partner has four hearts; and my three baby spades while nice aint gonna do their job if the opps know how to defend as well as how to bid.

All of that is a side issue to the given problem -- what to do after (2H) 2S (4H). We might not approve of partner's 2S overcall opposite a passed hand, but at least he got it out of his system and was not tempted to pass and then trot out 4S in balance. He gave me the opportunity to make the 4S mistake instead. I declined.

A wise old mentor way back in my youth said that when pressed, a stiff facecard in the opponent's suit means partner is minimum for his/her call. I never fully understood all the logic of that, but I do remember it.

[han]

My grandmother always said that it was going to rain when her breakfast porridge was too salty. I didn't understand the logic of that either.

A stiff in the opponents suit (and no raise) means partner is more likely to have length there. Partners are less eager to overcall when they have length in the suit bid by the opponents, so the minimum for their bid is higher. The higher their minimum, the more likely they don't have extras. So basically I agree with your mentor.

[JustTosh]

This is why there's something called Lebensohl. If using Lebensohl you'd know pd was not very strong and passing is then much easier.

[Phil]

OK I'll edit mine too.

[JustTosh]

JustTosh, on 2012-August-20, 16:44, said:

This is why there's something called Lebensohl. If using Lebensohl you'd know pd was not very strong and passing is then much easier.

Please ignore my last comment. Must have been half asleep or brain dead. Got it completely wrong as this of course is not a Lebensohl situation. I stand corrected.