[flytoox]

I met this hand on wednesday. Vul vs none, I holds:
S: TX
H: AJXXX
D: --
C: KJTXXX

PD opened 1S, RHO 2D, I DBL, showing h and c suit. LHO 3D, pd 4S, showing extra value, I leap to 6S. My question is:
How to distinguish this hand with:
S; TX
H: AKQXX
D: --
C: AKJTXXX
with this hand, if I dbl, pd may pass, converting it to penality. But if I cuebid 3d, then pd will very likely bid 3N, how to continue? Shall I dbl first?
Secondly, after I dbl, if I continue to bid, is it forcing to game?
Thanks a lot.

[Codo]

hi fly,

[color=Yellow]/if I dbl, pd may pass, converting it to penality. But if I cuebid 3d, then pd will very likely bid 3N, how to continue? Shall I dbl first? ...Secondly, after I dbl, if I continue to bid, is it forcing to game?
[color]

Double shows about 4-4 in the unbid suits, sometimes 4-3 sometimes 5-4. Or a double shows

a) a weak hand which you could not bid directly because you are playing strong bids at the second level after interferences
OR
any hand too strong for a non frocing free bid and not right for a double.

Which one it shows depends on your system. So I think that most players I know play it the second way and then your 2. bid after your double is forcing.

With the given hand, I would never double. Pd will never know, that any flat hand with 5332 maybe a monster and that we bvelong in heart not in spades then.
I had bid 2 Heart non-forcing but constructive.
If the bdidding ends there, we maybe won`t have anything. But if pd makes ANY other move, I will upgrade my hand and force him to game.

I realisze, that this is far from perfect, but I can not find a better way.

Kind Regards

Roland

[flytoox]

Double shows about 4-4 in the unbid suits, sometimes 4-3 sometimes 5-4.

Can it be 5-5 or even better?

With the given hand, I would never double. Pd will never know, that any flat hand with 5332 maybe a monster and that we bvelong in heart not in spades then.
I had bid 2 Heart non-forcing but constructive.

The problem is then you may never know c has a fit. How to solve this problem?

If the bdidding ends there, we maybe won`t have anything. But if pd makes ANY other move, I will upgrade my hand and force him to game.

I agree with this point.

What will you bid with the second hand after 1S-2D-?

S: TX
H: AKQXX
D: --
C: AKXXXX

will you cuebid? how to show two suiter hand in this case?
Thanks a lot.

flytoox

[Cave_Draco]

A relevant point, expanding on Roland's answer and taken from Bridgeguys, ;D.

Negative Free Bid
A non-forcing suit bid by the responder over an intervening overcall when all other conventional and systemic bids or calls are not available to describe his holdings and values. For example, partner opens 1 Club and this is followed by an overcall of 1 Spade. You hold Hearts: AQ9876 and a side Queen in Diamonds. You do not have sufficient values to bid 2 Hearts using standard methods. The normal conclusion is to employ a Negative Double, planning to rebid Hearts, which under normal circumstances would show a 5-card Heart suit and less than the required 10 high card points. The rebid could become a problem if the Spades are raised. It also becomes problematic if the holding is: Diamonds: AQ9876 and a side Queen in Hearts. The Negative Double then becomes questionable. The alternative is to have a partnership understanding that a Negative Free Bid of 2 Hearts (or 2 Diamonds in this example) may be employed. This understanding, however, affects the use of the Negative Double, since it is no longer needed for a hand that can make a Negative Free Bid, but it is required for a stronger hand that would normally make a forcing suit response at a minimum level. Therefore, a Negative Double followed by a new suit becomes forcing, promising a holding containing game values. The Negative Free Bid is not always necessary at the One Level and has questionable value at the Four Level, and therefore most partnership understandings include this feature only on the Two and Three Level.

[bglover]

I picked up this beauty yesterday:

x
AKQxxxx
j10xxx
void

Partner opened a spd, rho bid 2c... I elected to x planning on forcing slam if partner bid a red suit...

Well, the best laid plans of mice and men... LHO bid 4c (weak) and partner opted for 4s, 5c on my left and I now bid 5H passed out.

Here was my partners hand:

KQ10XXX
J
AKXXX
x

I was, to put it mildly, LIVID. My partner argued that I had a clear 2h bid, my response was that it was an option but that I wanted to get both red suits in ASAP. My partner then answered that my double only promised hearts and then I got MAD because he knows better!

2 things here... Unless we are playing special doubles my 2 level X promises at a minimum 3 dimonds and 4 hts... This may be different if the auction has gone 1c 1s x by me... now I guarantee hearts only the way I play (unless my partner doesn't agree to it, which some don't).

Second, my 2 level X doesn't necessarily promise lots of points as I had here... often it is simply suit showing with not enough for a 2/1 response (actually that is the case usually).

Could I have bid 2h instead of x? Sure, and I did not argue that point. Should my partner bid 4d instead of 4S in this auction? POSITIVELY...That is why I was livid... It could not cost to bid the dimond suit here... If I know he has enough hand to bid at the 4 level after my x I can always correct to spades and play a 5-2 fit with a decent hand.

[inquiry]

Hi Flytool, welcome to the BBF.

I play this according the style I got out of Robson/Segal's book on "Partnership Bidding at Bridge".

Your First Hand
S: TX
H: AJXXX
D: --
C: KJTXXX

I would double. My plan is that if partner bids 2SPADES, I will rebid 3C showing a 5-5 better hand in H/S (since 3C forces him to pick between my suit at the three level).

On the second hand
S: TX
H: AKQXX
D: --
C: AKJTXXX

I would bid a forcing 3Clubs. What I will not do is...
a) Double... hand is way to good for that
Cue-bid 3D... I play that as a limited spade raise
c) Jumpshift... I play those as 'fit-jumps'

Using this style (cue-bid is raise, jumpshifts as fit jumps), your must play simple new suit as 100% forcing (not a negative free bid). After bidding clubs, i plan on reversing and rebidding hearts.

[inquiry]

Quote

I picked up this beauty yesterday:

x
AKQxxxx
j10xxx
void

Partner opened a spd, lho bid 2c... I elected to x planning on forcing slam if partner bid a red suit...

Well, the best laid plans of mice and men... RHO bid 4c (weak) and partner opted for 4s, 5c on my right and I now bid 5H passed out.

I had a better auction than you, but sadly, only 1 imp better result. My auction

1S-2C-2H-5C
5D-P-6D-P
P-7C-P-P
X-all pass

We can't make 7D, they can only go down three not vul for +500 compared to your +480. With a forcing hand, two suit, just start bidding your suit.

Ben

[Codo]

Hi fly,
Double shows about 4-4 in the unbid suits, sometimes 4-3 sometimes 5-4.

Can it be 5-5 or even better?

Yes, if you play neg. free bids or the version Ben promotes. Else, why not bid your suits?


The problem is then you may never know c has a fit. How to solve this problem?

If we have a heart fit, I may not need to show the side suit and if we have no major fit, I may be able to bid the second suit naturally later. But surely, this is a problem. But I r4eally believe, that if you solve this problem (like using the cuebid for a 5+5+ in the remaining suits) you get too many other problems.


What will you bid with the second hand after 1S-2D-?

S: TX
H: AKQXX
D: --
C: AKXXXX

will you cuebid? how to show two suiter hand in this case?
?


I can rebid 2 Heart just if I play it as 100 % forcing. But then I have no problem at all.

I can rebid 3 Club. Negative free bids are played just at the 2. level. But it is very tricky to reach a proper contract then.

I can double and rebid my suits later. With negative free bids this is the only way to show this hand.
BUT this is hard too. If the bidding proceed something like 1 Spade-2 Diamond-X-4 Diamond
you can start to show your suits at the 5. level.
No fun.

I cannnot bid 3 Diamond, because this should show a spade raise or even better a good hand for 3 NT asking for a hold in their Diamond-suit.

I cannot jump to 3 Heart or 4 Club because this should be a kind of fit jump or splinter or whatever. But no two-suiter...

So, with negative free bids, I am stuck with a strong hand like your second.

But luckily (maybe unluckily) I have hands for a negative free bid a zillion times more often then so strong two-suiters. And then NFBs win much compared with standard bidding.

So, what to do, if luck gives you a hand like your second example?
First: I double. If pd will pass, it will be a disaster. Hopefully for them....

Later I will try to show my hand.
F.E. 1 Spade 2 Diamond X pass
2 Spade pass 3 Heart pass
3 NT pass 4 Club pass

But this is not convincing at all

Kind Regards

Roland

[flytoox]

I play this according the style I got out of Robson/Segal's book on "Partnership Bidding at Bridge".


I found many mentioned this book. Is this a good book? THANKS A LOT.

FLY

[Cave_Draco]

NFBs just take away the weak to moderate one-suited hands,

I prefer not to play Negative Doubles & use the cue-bid maybe too much, ;D.

The BIG problem with Negative Doubles is the re-opening double... Failure to double an overcall could be based upon distribution.
I prefer to use the double as "Hey P, our contract!"

NFBs tell P a lot &, Hey, they apply at the 3-level too! 1H-2D-3C can be a NFB.
Admittedly, more useful at MP than IMPs, but I like MP, ;D.