[Fluffy]

Scoring: MP

S - W - N - E
1♦ -1♥ -1♠ -ps
2♣ -2♥ -3♠ -ps
???

---

You might play 3♠ as forcing here, but on the given partnership it is just invitational.

opponents play weak 2 overcalls, after some enquiries you can assume west has opening values with 6+♥.

Would you change your mind if opponents weren´t strong?

[pclayton]

Fluffy, on Nov 15 2004, 06:09 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: N/S Scoring: MP

♠ K ♥ AJ7 ♦ QJ974 ♣ Q863

S - W - N - E 1♦ -1♥ -1♠ -ps 2♣ -2♥ -3♠ -ps ???

You might play 3♠ as forcing here,  but on the given partnership it is just invitational.

opponents play weak 2 overcalls, after some enquiries you can assume west has opening values with 6+♥.

Would you change your mind if opponents weren´t strong?

Here's a prototypical maximum from pard:

AQJxxx
xx
xxx
Ax

I can't see 10 tricks in spades. 3N is interesting, but I think best defense will probably beat that too.

Since pard could hold less, I hope we make our 9 tricks. Lets try to preserve our plus score. IMPs its certainly tougher.

[pbleighton]

3NT (but no bid really appeals).

Given West's hearts, pd has to have something in the minors. My hand screams slow-developing tricks. My SK is golden. I want West on lead.

3NT is probably unsound (as is 4S), but I'm not going to leave this one in part score, even at MPs.

Peter

[HeartA]

PASS. Those Qs and Js don't look useful.

[inquiry]

If you are not going to pass with this hand, then you play 3♠ as forcing. Nuff said.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Nov 15 2004, 11:52 PM, said:

If you are not going to pass with this hand, then you play 3♠ as forcing. Nuff said.

Ben

I dunno. AJx may very well end up being a double stop, and the ♠K looks golden.

[whereagles]

Pass. Hand is junk. Too many 'soft' values.

[Free]

Pass, I don't like my hand...

[joker_gib]

Pass at MP

[jtfanclub]

Ummm...I'm really waffling on this hand....

PClayton's example hand, looks like it might make 3NT but will make 3 spades.
AQJxxx
xx
xxx
Ax

But I'm looking at a hand like
AQJxxx
Tx
xx
Axx

and I'm seeing great ways to make 3NT (certainly on a heart lead), and no good ways to make 3 spades. You're getting your six spades and two aces. This is particularly true if East has a singleton (or void!) in hearts.

I don't know. I can't put up a good argument, but it doesn't seem to me that 3 spades is much safer than 3NT. Maybe I just want the lead around to me.

[luke warm]

pass

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Nov 16 2004, 06:34 AM, said:

Ummm...I'm really waffling on this hand....

PClayton's example hand, looks like it might make 3NT but will make 3 spades.
AQJxxx
xx
xxx
Ax

But I'm looking at a hand like
AQJxxx
Tx
xx
Axx

and I'm seeing great ways to make 3NT (certainly on a heart lead), and no good ways to make 3 spades. You're getting your six spades and two aces. This is particularly true if East has a singleton (or void!) in hearts.

I don't know. I can't put up a good argument, but it doesn't seem to me that 3 spades is much safer than 3NT. Maybe I just want the lead around to me.

The problem is, if you had this hand, would you just issue an invite? I mean great suit, great controls (four). I would never bid a non-forcing 3♠ with this hand, even at matchpoints. This hand is too good. Maybe same hand with spade jack changed for a small spade.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Nov 16 2004, 09:26 AM, said:

The problem is, if you had this hand, would you just issue an invite? I mean great suit, great controls (four). I would never bid a non-forcing 3♠ with this hand, even at matchpoints. This hand is too good. Maybe same hand with spade jack changed for a small spade.

Well....to me, 3♠ is as close to forcing as you can get without actually being forcing. It says "If you have a full opener, bid game". I've been known to open hands with a lot of length in the minors without many HCP, since I don't have a double-minor pre-empt. Something like:

x
xx
AJxxx
KQxxx

Let's see, that's 14 Zar on distribution, 13 on points, for 27...so I guess I'm not alone on opening it. You'll be very lucky to make 3 spades, though. That's the sort of hand that I'd pass with.

I guess it comes down to 'what does invitational mean'?

[pclayton]

I don't think in this auction you can have a lot of flavors of invitational hands, unlike an xyz auction. I'm hesitant to use labels like "bid game unless you have absolute garbage" or "bid game if you have extras". That cuts the definition too fine.

I guess part of it is a function of whether or not you play weak jump shifts. If you do, then a 2♠ rebid by pard can be somewhat constructive, while the jump rebid fits more of JT's definition.

Even if my earlier hand fit that requirement of being "almost forcing" I don't want to be in game here. In 3N, I have a tenuous 2nd stopper in hearts, and I am relying on a single entry to establish and cash spades. In 4♠, having 4 quick losers looks likely.

I'm a maniac when it comes to bidding vulnerable games at IMPs, but this isn't the right hand for it.

[cf_John0]

Pass 'cause of no game.

[Fluffy]

Ok here the full hand if you need it, actually it is some of those perfect fit hands so it isn´t a very good example on the long run, but here it is.

---

My own thoughs were that pass was for sure the correct voice, at IMPS 4♠ would probably be the best spot, but I felt that if partner held 1 ace adn 1 king on each minor it would be probably possible to keep east offlead and stablish ♠ for 3NT on the process, so I finally got the third option (helped by the not so high level of the opponents actually) and made 12 tricks after ♥ releads.