[sailoranch]

---

Favorable at IMPs. The agreements are 4♦ = RKC, 4M = first or second round control, and 4NT = Last Train. What is the most reasonable way to 7♣?

Thanks for your replies.

[Cyberyeti]

The way I would bid this starting with your auction is
4♦-4♥(0/3)
5♣(signoff opp 0)-5♦(3 keys+K♦)

now you're on a guess as to whether partner has Axxx, xxx, AKx, Kxx or his actual hand, so you bid 5♥ showing the K, partner signs off in 6♣ and you can bid 6♦ showing the Q knowing you have 12 in NT if partner has the 4333, partner now knows you have 13 tricks in clubs unless you have ♥AK stiff and if you are 1246 you still stand a good chance of 13, 2236 is the death hand. Does he bid the grand ? depends a little on his personality and whether with xx, AK, Qxx, AQ(J/x)xxx you'd have opened/rebid 1N depending on range.

The way I'd actually have bid it in my methods is:

1♣-1♠
1N (15-bad 19 bal or stiff ♠)-2♣(asking)
3♣(17-bad 19, 5(-6) ♣)-3♠(5♠)
3N-4♣

Then as the above auction but I know partner has 5♠ and 3 clubs, hence I can cover his red suit losers and ruff a heart so bid 7♣ over 5♦.

[keylime]

After a 4 heart cuebid, 4 spades comes out. Problem is the diamond situation which pard would understand. I'd treat 4NT as non-KC but "where are we going pard?".

[inquiry]

It is a little tricky in that bypassing 4♦ by opener does not deny a diamond control since 4♦ would be ASKING for controls. Also, you didn't say what 4♣ showed other than support. Since it give up on 3NT, i play it as forcing, I assume you do as well, but it is not clear as not stated.

Here goes...

4♥ - cuebid, a heart control, neutral on diamonds. NOW, responder can take control, presumably....as he has diamond and spade controls...

4NT - ROMAN KEYCARD
5♣ = STRONG HAND RESPONDS 0-3, 1-4 as 3 controls most likely
5♦ = queen ask
5♥ = club queen and king of hearts

Responder knows this....:
♥AK, ♣AQxxxx, not spade ace, not two kings (or would bid grand over 5♦).

So he can count 2♥, 1♠, 6♣, 2♦. But opener needs more, as the known cards are not enough for a jump to 3♣. The more almost has to be at least one red queen, and maybe a seventh club. The danger hand is ♠xx ♥AK ♦Qxx ♣AQxxxx as you have a sure spade loser. If you partner would have opened 1NT or jump rebid 2NT with something like that, then you are on safe grounds playing him for a singleton spade and a red suit queen or 7th club. EITHER of which would then be good enough for grand slam. For instance with
♠x ♥AKQ ♦xxx ♥AQxxxx you can pitch a diamond on heart and ruff a diamond, with ♠x ♥AKx ♦Qxx ♥AQxxxx, you ruff a heart in your hand, and with ♠x ♥AKx ♦Qxxx ♥AQxxxx, you may have to play to establish spades or for a squeeze if diamonds do not split 3=3.

[mike777]

now :

4d=4h(0-3)
5h(kh, grand try)=5nt(kd, deny ks)
6d(qd)=7c

pard would not bid 4c with zero keycards.
it may help if 3c promises shortness, rebid or open nt with no shortness.

[aguahombre]

Anything that has opener Kicking back over 4C with no diamond control is out, and 4NT is not RKC after the heart and spade cuebids; so RKC is the train we miss.

4NT would allow responder to que diamonds.

1C-1S
3C-4C (yes, forcing)
4H-4S
4N--passable or,
5C-5D
5H---and on to only six clubs, because we can't really find out about that magic diamond queen and the doubleton heart opposite AKX without bypassing 6C.

Oh, well. We miss a 30-point grand everything perfectly situated. NEXT.

We can't count 12 tricks for no trump without knowing responder has AKX in diamonds rather than AKXX of spades, either.

BTW: I was accepting the given auction thru 4C and the conditions. In reality (for us), we would not be wasting the 3-level but would rather bid 3D over 3C to start the cooperative auction toward slam (clarified by 3S over 3H as slammish for clubs and not just a 3NT probe). With the additional room we might get there.

Again, neither the hand with QXX of Diamonds nor the one with XX of hearts can launch RKC until that suit has been cuebid by the other person.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-July-23, 19:18

[ahydra]

I like 4D next, and will try

4D (RKC ♣)-4S (0 or 3)
5D (specific kings)-5NT (DK no HK or SK)
6H (third round ask)-7C

Now, if only I played specific kings with my partner.

ahydra

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ahydra, on 2012-July-23, 18:55, said:

I like 4D next, and will try

4D (RKC ♣)-4S (0 or 3)
5D (specific kings)-5NT (DK no HK or SK)
6H (third round ask)-7C

Now, if only I played specific kings with my partner.

ahydra

And with NO 3rd Rnd ♥-Ctrl, what is the " negative " reply ?
..... I suppose it would have to be 6S or 6NT ( and the "asker" [ North ] knows there are 12 tricks at 6NT before he "asks" ) .

[keylime]

You're surely not KC'ing with a wide open suit, are we? Doesn't matter if it's Minorwood, Redwood, Kickback, Bitterwood, or Tarquin Fin- tim- lin- bin- whin- bim- lin- bus- stop- F'tang- F'tang- Olé- Biscuitbarrel!, KC is not the answer here.

[Cyberyeti]

keylime, on 2012-July-24, 01:15, said:

You're surely not KC'ing with a wide open suit, are we? Doesn't matter if it's Minorwood, Redwood, Kickback, Bitterwood, or Tarquin Fin- tim- lin- bin- whin- bim- lin- bus- stop- F'tang- F'tang- Olé- Biscuitbarrel!, KC is not the answer here.

You have to work on the basis of probabilities here, if you don't keycard you will almost never find out everything you need to know, if you do, you risk bidding 6 where you're missing ♦ AK which they have to find at trick 1 as partner is going to have very good spades as there's little room for the opps to have anything else.

Cue bidding A,K,1,0 you risk bidding a no play slam opposite KQJxx, QJ, KJx, Kxx (and a 50% one having pinpointed the diamond lead opposite the same hand with Axx/AJx in diamonds, where if partner shows 2 keycards and you bid 6, you might get a heart lead) if you don't keycard but cuebid, also you won't find the grand when the hands are as they are, my suspicion is that if you bid on balance of probabilities rather than being phobic about ever bidding 6 off an AK that the odds favour using keycard (unless maybe your cue bidding methods are really sophisticated).

[Zelandakh]

You have some options here. Most have been mentioned already but I wanted to put forward an alternative. On Responder's rebid, we can see what the problem might be over 4♣. One way of addressing this would be to use a 3♦ bid as some form of advanced cue. Opener would initially interpret this naturally and probably bid 3NT. Now 4♣ from Responder is still slam-going and highlights the heart issue. North could now take control.

That gives
1♣ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♦
3NT - 4♣
4♦ - 4♠ (0/3)
5♦ - 5NT (♦K)
6♥ - 6♠ (♥xx)
7♣

I think that is about as much certainty as you can achieve here. The disadvantage of this route comes if North does not cooperate with a 3NT bid over our 3♦. That may or may not create a problem depending on how your methods work here. I suspect this would be unwindable for most though.

Since you did not specify a system in your "sensible route" title I am going to give the strong club auction here too - feel free to ignore it. Bonus for regular viewers is that I have been fiddling with the 15-17 relay breaks after a positive response...

1♣ = 15+ bal/nat or 18+ any
... - 2♥ = bal, 4-5 spades, 2-3 hearts, GF
2NT = 15-17 with <4 spades, 5 clubs and 4 hearts (not 0445) or 6+ clubs
... - 3♣ = 3+ clubs, slammy
4♣ = accept slam try, controls in both majors, no diamond control
... - 4♦ = RKCB
5♣ = 2 key cards with ♣Q
... - 5♦ = king ask
5♥ = ♥K
... - 7♣ (partner must have either ♠K or a red queen and singleton/void spade for their 4♣ bid)

On the point Don raised, I play the lowest of a bid in the trump suit and 6NT as the negative reply to a SSA. You can see this with the 6♥ bid in the first auction - 6NT would show no 3rd round control, 6♠ shows a doubleton but not the queen, and 7♣ shows the queen.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-July-24, 05:03, said:

You have some options here. Most have been mentioned already but I wanted to put forward an alternative. On Responder's rebid, we can see what the problem might be over 4♣. One way of addressing this would be to use a 3♦ bid as some form of advanced cue. Opener would initially interpret this naturally and probably bid 3NT. Now 4♣ from Responder is still slam-going and highlights the heart issue. North could now take control.

That gives
1♣ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♦
3NT - 4♣
4♦ - 4♠ (0/3)
5♦ - 5NT (♦K)
6♥ - 6♠ (♥xx)
7♣

Well if you inject 3♥(4SF)-3♠ into this auction over 3♦, you get to find out that partner has 5 spades too so you don't need the 3rd round heart ask for 7♣, but the Q would allow you to bid 7N with certainty.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

inquiry, on 2012-July-23, 17:50, said:

Here goes...

4♥ - cuebid, a heart control, neutral on diamonds. NOW, responder can take control, presumably....as he has diamond and spade controls...

4NT - ROMAN KEYCARD
5♣ = STRONG HAND RESPONDS 0-3, 1-4 as 3 controls most likely
5♦ = queen ask
5♥ = club queen and king of hearts

If that is SOUTH ( Responder ) going 4NT ( RKC for ♣ ) , then North ( Opener ) is the Replier and has 2 key cards + ♣Q = 5S reply... not 5C ( 0/3 ) .

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-July-24, 05:41, said:

Well if you inject 3♥(4SF)-3♠ into this auction over 3♦, you get to find out that partner has 5 spades too so you don't need the 3rd round heart ask for 7♣, but the Q would allow you to bid 7N with certainty.

On:
1C-1S
3C-3D (a good thing)
3H-3S....3H is not "4SF"(a noise), it is a control-showing bid to cater to either a NT probe or a slam try in clubs. 3S does not show 5 spades; it is a control-showing bid confirming the slam try in clubs (otherwise would have bid 3NT). Only with a "soft" stop in hearts would opener bid 3N over 3D.

The spade suit as trumps went out of the picture when (with six+) responder did not bid a forcing 3S AND again when opener did not bid 3S over 3D to show 3 of them.

So on:
1C-1S
3C-3D
3H-3S Opener can now use the partnership's Wood method, whether it be Minorwood, Kickback, or whatever. Or, he can just continue to cue with 4H to show both controls. If Opener chooses the 4H recue, Responder could recue diamonds ---making the diamond queen a big thing.

However, it still could be a problem. One knows about his DQ, the other knows about the doubleton heart, but can the one making the final decision know about both?

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2012-July-24, 10:05, said:

On:
1C-1S
3C-3D (a good thing)
3H-3S....3H is not "4SF"(a noise), it is a control-showing bid to cater to either a NT probe or a slam try in clubs. 3S does not show 5 spades; it is a control-showing bid confirming the slam try in clubs (otherwise would have bid 3NT). Only with a "soft" stop in hearts would opener bid 3N over 3D.

The spade suit as trumps went out of the picture when (with six+) responder did not bid a forcing 3S AND again when opener did not bid 3S over 3D to show 3 of them.

So what am I supposed to do when my club suit is not enough to insist on and partner is 6-5 in the pointies ? No suit is set yet, 3♦ is not yet automatically a control and neither is 3♥ the way I play. 3♥ is looking for 3N initially unless I remove it, soft or hard stops no different. Looking at say Ax, Jxx, Ax, AQJxxx opposite KQxxxx, xx, KQJxx, void. If I bid 3♠ instead of 3♦, partner will have x, KQ, Axx, AKJ10xxx and 5♦ will be best game.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-July-24, 10:54, said:

Looking at say Ax, Jxx, Ax, AQJxxx opposite KQxxxx, xx, KQJxx, void. If I bid 3♠ instead of 3♦, partner will have x, KQ, Axx, AKJ10xxx and 5♦ will be best game.

X KQ AXX AKJTXXX is out of the picture for me, so I don't know what to do opposite that with your KQXXXX XX KQJXX V. That opener would have rebid a systemic 3N showing the short spade and red primes (typically 1-3-3-6), so finding 5D would be a piece of cake.

Context is always a problem with these discussions.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2012-July-23, 18:34, said:

Anything that has opener Kicking back over 4C with no diamond control is out, and 4NT is not RKC after the heart and spade cuebids; so RKC is the train we miss.

Why can't 4NT be RKC AFTER a ♥ ( and/or ♠ ) cue ?
Ben in post #4 shows it as such .

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-July-24, 13:51, said:

Why can't 4NT be RKC AFTER a ♥ ( and/or ♠ ) cue ?
Ben in post #4 shows it as such .

I think most partnerships agree that if you bypass kickback, you're cue bidding all the way not asking for aces (which doesn't work well when the agreed suit is a minor anyway).

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2012-July-24, 11:11, said:

X KQ AXX AKJTXXX is out of the picture for me, so I don't know what to do opposite that with your KQXXXX XX KQJXX V. That opener would have rebid a systemic 3N showing the short spade and red primes (typically 1-3-3-6), so finding 5D would be a piece of cake.

Context is always a problem with these discussions.

1x-1y-3N must be one of the third bids in a simple unopposed auction that is used for more different things by different people, 1♣-1♠-3N is big 4144 for us, so unsurprisingly I didn't consider it (it's not quite so specific with other suit combinations).

[SteveMoe]

Since 3♣ is forcing, 3♦ sets a game force.
1♣ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♦
3♥ - 3♠
3N - 4♣ is a slam try confirming prior control bids.

With 6=x=4=y, responder rebids 4♠ over 3N
with 5=x=5=y, responder rebids 4♦ over 3N.

Imho,
1♣ - 1♠
3♣ - 4♣ denies 3N as a suitable contract. Some would play this bid as Minorwood... some would say this expresses doubt about the 5-level.

I like control bidding too much to sacrifice 4♦ for RKB in this auction.