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A competitive auction who is in charge here ?

#1 User is offline   jetkro 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 15:24

[B]
Scoring: IMP

1H - P - 3H - 3S
4C - P - 4H - P
P - 4S - DBL - P
P - P


3H was a 4 card limit raise.
This a very poor result for NS as 5h was cold.
After having bid 4C in an attempt to enlist partner's help later on in the auction, I passed the double, having felt that I had shown my hand, whereas my gut feeling was
to bid 5H.
If I had faced the situation which occurred at many other tables, where east had bid
4S directly, then I am sure I would have bid 5H myself.
Anyone care to apportion the blame?
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Posted 2004-November-15, 15:47

jetkro, on Nov 15 2004, 05:24 PM, said:

[B]
Scoring: IMP

1H - P - 3H - 3S
4C - P - 4H - P
P - 4S - DBL - P
P - P


3H was a 4 card limit raise.
This a very poor result for NS as 5h was cold.
After having bid 4C in an attempt to enlist partner's help later on in the auction, I passed the double, having felt that I had shown my hand, whereas my gut feeling was
to bid 5H.
If I had faced the situation which occurred at many other tables, where east had bid
4S directly, then I am sure I would have bid 5H myself.
Anyone care to apportion the blame?

First, it is rare to find people who understand "captaincy" auctions. But we all know that when one hand has limited itself via biddign NT or raising, the other hand is the captain. So the second problem is people think, once a captain has been appointed, then the captain makes all the rules. We know this is not true, becasuse of auctions like...

1N-2C-2H-3H... where 3H is invite despite the fact that 1NT was very limited. The captain (responder) is inviting opener to go on with a max 1NT. So when you make a limited raise of partner, partner can invite your further participation with a bid like 4 here on this hand.

So when you bid 4, you were preparing for your opponents to bid 4 over 4. Now your partner probably should bid 4 over 4 since you could have been thinking grander things, but ok.. he bids 4, and all pass to WEST who bids 4. What should your partner do? Aces are good for offense or defense. His three little clubs are not good for either, his four hearts to the JACK=Ten are only good for offense. His hand is neither offensive (bid 5) nor defensive (double) oriented. Give him another spade, double comes to mind. Give him teh club queen, bid on comes to mind. He simply doesn't have a hand that suggest defend or bid. He should pass the buck by making a forcig pass. With your hand, y ou will know what to do. If partner had slow tricks (KQ of diamonds), he would have doubled. If partner had huge fitting club cards (AQ of clubs), he would bid on. Pass shows uncertainty , which is what he has.

Your partner I think bears the blunt of the blame. He heard you bid 4, if he doubles, he is showing a hand more suited for defense than offense. Which he doesn't have. But this means your partner has to understand this type of bidding. Buy him a copy of Robson/Segal Partnership bidding at bridge (good news, online version is free), and let him read it.

Ben
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#3 User is offline   ack_hh 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 16:09

inquiry, on Nov 15 2004, 10:47 PM, said:

Buy him a copy of Robson/Segal Partnership bidding at bridge (good news, online version is free), and let him read it.

Ben, do you have the link at hand?
"Running free Ts for the thank you would be like becoming a dental surgeon for the conversation" -= rigour6 =-
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Posted 2004-November-15, 16:16

ack_hh, on Nov 15 2004, 06:09 PM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 15 2004, 10:47 PM, said:

Buy him a copy of Robson/Segal Partnership bidding at bridge (good news, online version is free), and let him read it.

Ben, do you have the link at hand?

http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/

That is dan neil's page.. look for robson/Segal notes about 2/3 way down the page... it is in PDF so you need the free adobe PDF reader.

Ben
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#5 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 16:23

1) East should have overcalled 4
2) West should have raised to 4 immediately rather than later
3) North should have taken the opportunity to bid 4 - When you have bid two suits like this, his Aces in the outside suits are excellent cards.
4) North should have passed 4 to suggest bidding on, rather than unilaterally doubling
5) South might very well bid 5 anyway ( but you have to be sure to over-rule partner! )

So really the blame goes to North. In a sense, he is more to blame than he normally would be because East and West conspired to give him chances which he failed to take.

Eric
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#6 User is offline   uday 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 16:46

I'm not sure I buy that NS is in a forcing auction. In this day of light openers, why can't South simply be showing an offensive 2-suiter to see if N wants to do something over 4S? Particularly if the NS style allows for N to make a limit raise on a flat 9 count.

If you think NS is in a force, what do you think created the force? The limit raise? the 4C call? Please don't say "the 4S call"


Why can't S hold something like

x
KQxxx
Kx
KQxxx

and remain willing to subside over 4S if N couldnt act?

From Ns perspective, he has 8/9 HCP in off suits, the worst possible club holding, I dont think he has any doubt about whether he wants to play 5H -- he doesnt. The Aces are fine for defence, and maybe N should want to defend.
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#7 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 17:43

According to Robson/Segal, NS are in a forcing situation due to new suit announcement at 4-level at 'red' (V vs NV).
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Posted 2004-November-15, 18:13

uday, on Nov 15 2004, 06:46 PM, said:

I'm not sure I buy that NS is in a forcing auction.,,,,

Why can't S hold something like

x
KQxxx
Kx
KQxxx

and remain willing to subside over 4S if N couldnt act?

From Ns perspective, he has 8/9 HCP in off suits, the worst possible club holding, I dont think he has any doubt about whether he wants to play 5H -- he doesnt. The Aces are fine for defence, and maybe N should want to defend.

Well, the answer lies in what jimmy said. NS are vulnerable, against not-vul EW. This is the situation where they are most likely to take a save over your bid, and thus the situation where your are most likely need to establish a forcing raise situation.

With the hand you drew up, no need to bid 4. Opposite a limit raise, you don't want to encourage partner to do anything at this vul over their 4, should they bid it. So you might just bid 4, now forcing pass is not in force. If you bid 4, you are inviting partners participaton.

One doesn't have to agree with Robson/Segal rules, but I think their advise is to establish rules (any rules are better than none) on what is forcing pass situation and what is not.

Ben
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#9 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-November-15, 18:26

inquiry, on Nov 15 2004, 04:13 PM, said:

uday, on Nov 15 2004, 06:46 PM, said:

I'm not sure I buy that NS is in a forcing auction.,,,,

Why can't S hold something like

x
KQxxx
Kx
KQxxx

and remain willing to subside over 4S if N couldnt act?

From Ns perspective, he has 8/9 HCP in off suits, the worst possible club holding, I dont think he has any doubt about whether he wants to play 5H -- he doesnt.  The Aces are fine for defence,  and maybe N should want to defend.

Well, the answer lies in what jimmy said. NS are vulnerable, against not-vul EW. This is the situation where they are most likely to take a save over your bid, and thus the situation where your are most likely need to establish a forcing raise situation.

With the hand you drew up, no need to bid 4. Opposite a limit raise, you don't want to encourage partner to do anything at this vul over their 4, should they bid it. So you might just bid 4, now forcing pass is not in force. If you bid 4, you are inviting partners participaton.

One doesn't have to agree with Robson/Segal rules, but I think their advise is to establish rules (any rules are better than none) on what is forcing pass situation and what is not.

Ben

I think because of the vulnerability, a forcing pass is in effect whether we bid 4 / 4 or 4. We may not have a hand with concentrated values where 4-of-a-minor is appropriate; rather we might be bidding 4 on general values.

NV vs V (or maybe even equal), the rule that 4 of our major doesn't set up a force, since 4 / 4 can be used, at the very least as a lead director ('cept were' not on lead on this hand) and be used to establish a FP later in the auction.
"Phil" on BBO
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Posted 2004-November-16, 07:57

One competitive rule that I got from Robson/Segal that I really like is that no direct natural raise establishes a forcing pass situation. This does not meant that raises via splinter or jacoby also don't estabish forcing pass, but just that direct nature riases (1H-4H, 1H-2H-4H, 1H-3H-4H), do not.

Ben
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