[hirowla]

I'm not sure how to bid to get to these (possible) slams. There is no interference by the opposition. My partner and I play standard 5 card majors but a 12-14 NT. We have no jump shift agreements, do play 4th suit forcing, play 3-way transfers over NT. Not sure what else is relevant. Any suggestions? We got bad scores on all these boards.

Hand 1 - Dealer is South

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Hand 2 - Dealer is North

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Hand 3 - Dealer is South

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Thanks,

Ian

[ahydra]

1) After 1NT you need to have some agreement on how to bid these kinds of hands. Perhaps transfer to clubs followed by 4D or something? Alternatively 3D (slam try) followed by 4C should get the message across, but here South should probably accept a 3D slam try with 4D which makes North's life easy.

2) South can surely visualise slam after 1D-1H-3D. Indeed 1D-1H-3D-6NT is a (silly but) reasonable punt. I'd go for 4D, after which North can cue 4S (don't cue shortage in partner's suit) and South can then ask for aces, getting to the slam.

3) 1C-1S hmm now what? I'd bid 2H, which probably gets 3D (4SF) from partner, 3H completes the shape description, North asks for aces and bingo. Again, after South reverses North should be going all the way to slam.

ahydra

[ArtK78]

ahydra, on 2012-June-21, 08:51, said:

3) 1C-1S hmm now what? I'd bid 2H, which probably gets 3D (4SF) from partner, 3H completes the shape description, North asks for aces and bingo. Again, after South reverses North should be going all the way to slam.

ahydra

I don't know if bingo is exactly the right term. Suppose the hands were as follows:

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One silly little card different. But the bidding will be the same, and asking for aces and kings won't uncover the 2 quick losers in diamonds.

Despite the disparity in the strength of the suits, it might be better to start the auction with 1♥ rather than 1♣. After South shows his suits, North may be able to start a cue bidding sequence. Now the control (or lack thereof) in the diamond suit will be revealed.

[mike777]

with 3 prefer 1c=1s=3c start.

Playing reverse flannery responder will very often not have 5s and 4h here.


after 3c north can drive to slam.


with Arts example I will risk rebidding only 2c.

really dislike starting with 1h which is my shorter suit and much weaker suit. granted I will miss my 5-3 h fit often now.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

These are difficult.

The first two resemble the recent "misfit" threads.... and stop in 3NT.

The last one, even opening the more prudent 1H, Opener will be reluctant to go slammish after a 4th suit GF auction and Responder finally supports ♥ .

[hirowla]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-June-21, 18:19, said:

These are difficult.

The first two resemble the recent "misfit" threads.... and stop in 3NT.

The last one, even opening the more prudent 1H, Opener will be reluctant to go slammish after a 4th suit GF auction and Responder finally supports ♥ .

I'll give a hint on what I did which may flesh out some things.

Hand 1:
We have no mechanism to deal with this type of hand. A bid of 2♠ is a transfer to ♣/♦, 3♣ is 6 clubs with a suit that will almost run (the SAYC definition), same with 3♦. I just bid 3NT because I couldn't find a way to deal with it!

Hand 2:
Bidding went 1♦ - 1♥ (as expected). I thought about 3♦ but that is not a game force. I thought about bidding 2♠ to force game and then retreat to ♦ but was scared that my partner would think I was serious about ♠. So I chickened out and bid 3NT. Which leads to....

Hand 3:
Bidding went 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣. I regretted my earlier choice and decided to bid 2♥, mainly to keep the bidding open. I got a 3♥ response, said a rude word to myself and bid 3NT. Said an ever ruder word when my partner bid 4♥! So I passed and hoped he had 5 ♥'s


Is this ok (excluding the other answers) or did I do bad things (or did my partner do bad things)?

Thanks,

Ian

[mike777]

1) south will open 1d and north will force to slam and find only missing Qd
2) north will show an 18-19 hand and south will bid 6nt.
3) prefer 1c and rebid 3c north will force to slam.....playing reverse flannery willmean pard will very seldom have 4h here, I will miss 5-3 h fit often. As often stated jump rebids in minors have quite a wide range.


edit:
granted if playing wk nt this changes alot of the above but I think you need some way to show these hands then.

on one you needs some way to make a slam try with 5-5 in minors over a wk nt
with two you need a way to show 18-19 bal or semibal.

[hirowla]

mike777, on 2012-June-21, 18:55, said:

1) south will open 1d and north will force to slam and find only missing Qd
2) north will show an 18-19 hand and south will bid 6nt.
3) prefer 1c and rebid 3c north will force to slam.....playing reverse flannery willmean pard will very seldom have 4h here, I will miss 5-3 h fit often. As often stated jump rebids in minors have quite a wide range.


edit:
granted if playing wk nt this changes alot of the above but I think you need some way to show these hands then.

on one you needs some way to make a slam try with 5-5 in minors over a wk nt
with two you need a way to show 18-19 bal or semibal.

On 1 I have some ideas (much like the BBO robot NT setup) but I'm worried about my partner's memory strain. Doing that I would bid 2♠ (minor suit stayman), that might get me there.

On 2 I do have that bid - 3NT!!!! But I wanted to keep the ♦ slam option - only thing I thought of was to bid 2♠.

[mike777]

hirowla, on 2012-June-21, 19:13, said:

On 1 I have some ideas (much like the BBO robot NT setup) but I'm worried about my partner's memory strain. Doing that I would bid 2♠ (minor suit stayman), that might get me there.

On 2 I do have that bid - 3NT!!!! But I wanted to keep the ♦ slam option - only thing I thought of was to bid 2♠.

2) 1d=1H
3nt=huge hand with solid diamonds.......so be not afraid of losing d slam.


1) ya I would think wk nt experts(see Chip Martel & others) have a way to show this hand

[perko90]

1) It's reasonable to not have a great way to show a big 2-suited minor hand when playing weak NT. Minor Suit Stayman (MSS) hands are rare enough facing a strong NT as to make the convention expendable. And with a weak NT, it can be discarded easily. However, if you don't have a way to show a GF minor hand, you need to modify your system. That way, for this hand, you can show the diamonds, then the clubs. But more importantly, allows for slam explorations with the more common 1-suited minor responding hand.
FWIW, here's what I play when playing Xfers over NT:
2NT = Xfer to ♣ (weak or slam invite+) (major suit bid follow-up is a splinter; bidding 3NT after a minor Xfer is a mild slam try)
3C = Xfer to ♦ (weak or slam invite+)
3D = 5-5 majors invite+ (opener simply picks the suit and bids 3M if weak and 4M if strong)
and then the bid that makes it all come together ...
2♠ = usually an invite without a 4cM (balanced or a long minor) + can also include (an admittedly clumsy) big MSS hand
Opener bids 2NT w/ all minimums; responder with an invite passes or bids long minor; with an MSS hand can bid 3M as a splinter, 3NT as a sign-off (hoping ptr had a max), 4m as RKC w/ minor agreed and you could add a few more specialized bids, if so desired.
Opener with a max bids 3NT (you can assign the whole 3 lvl to specific types of max hands, too, if so desired, but I don't want to write a book)
Anyway, with a single 2♠ bid, you get a flat invite (without having to go thru Stayman and needlessly disclose your major holding), both single-suited minor invites (freeing up 2NT & 3m bids) and a clumsy form of MSS as a bonus that you will hardly ever use.
BTW, Danny Kleinman has this 2♠ bid and a lot of other sage advice in his book "The Notrump Zone."

2) As mike777 said, 1♦-1♥; 3NT is supposed to be something close to 3=1=6=3 shape with running diamonds, no interest in ptr's suit and the other 2 suits well stopped. You almost, but not quite, had the right hand

3) Depending if your partnership agreements allow extra shape reverses with light values, S either should open 1♣ and reverse to 2♥ OR open 1♥ and rebid 2♣ (if light reverse isn't allowed). Burying the heart suit with a club opener and rebid is ugly.
That said, after 1♣-1M; 2♣ auctions, I highly recommend treating 2♦ as a sort of NMF, artificial forcing, implying a 5cM.

[Cyberyeti]

Hand 1 - not a great slam, don't worry about it

Hand 2 - 1♦-1♥-3♦-4♦ then depends on your ace asking methods, but should be easy enough

Hand 3 - 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♦!(relay)-2♥-3♦!(4th suit)-3♥-4♠(kickback)- then depends on methods for showing voids whether you can bid it with certainty or have to gamble that partner is not 0526.

[mikl_plkcc]

In my natural system documented at
http://bridge.wikia..../natural_system

My system is based on 15-17 NT and 4-way transfers, however, the following auctions are modified to a 12-14 NT and 3-way transfers to match the top post:

MODIFIED ON 23RD JUNE: DUMP BLACKWOOD AND USE 4NT AS TRUMP CUE
MOST OF THE FOLLOWINGS WON'T WORK IF VOIDWOOD IS IN USE!

Hand 1 - Dealer is South

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1NT (12-14)
- 3♠ (5-5 minors short in spades, GF)
4♦ (agreeing the trump suit, responder with 17 HCPs + 3 DPs can now start cuebidding)
- 4NT (trump A cue, denies hearts and spades 1st round controls)
5♦ (I worry about the clubs)

Due to the lack of bidding space, South cannot tell North about his hearts and spades, and North cannot tell South about his clubs, therefore, slam cannot be bid safely (However, it may worth the risk continue cuebidding the slam hoping the opponents cannot cash the ♣AK since we have more than 33 points in total)

Hand 2 - Dealer is North

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1♦
- 1♥
3♦ (suggests 6 of the suit, 19+, GF)
- 4♥ (advance cue-bid)
4♠
- 5♣ (denies diamond ace)
5♥ (second round control)
- 6♣
7♦ (everything is here!)

Hand 3 - Dealer is South

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1♣
- 1♠
2♥ (a reverse!, suggests 5 clubs and 4 hearts)
- 3♦ (4SF, to game)
3♥ (suggests 6 clubs and 5 hearts, can't play 3NT due to lack of diamond stopper)
- 4♠ (advance cuebid)
5♣ (cuebid, denies hearts A)
- 5♥ (I worry about the diamonds, so let's sign off)
South cannot continue bidding since he cannot know the trump A and K, a diamond trick and a heart trick can easily get lost.