[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Nov 21 2004, 06:21 PM, said:

Typically, for 4♦ I'm holding: xx, Qxxxx, AKxxx, Kx when I make this call. I'm slightly better than this in that I hold a 6th heart; a value will be very hard to gauge later. 

here we are not only "slightly better", but hugely better (is hugely good enhlish ?? ).

Not only do we have a 6th heart, but also 2 side singleton which limit the max losers in side suits, and transform a "normal hand" in a hand that needs only info on key cards.

We know this and pard does not know, so if we put him in difficulty, raising to 4D when many times he will not have room to bid anything but a signoff, even holding 3 keycards.

[luke warm]

Chamaco, on Nov 21 2004, 10:15 PM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 21 2004, 04:11 PM, said:

because partner might bid 4nt ... let him have a chance to evaluate a double fit, if one exists

But if he signoffs (e.g. deevaluate hois hand based on diamond misfit) and u will bid 4NT anyways, then there is nothing gained.

i understand your thoughts on this, but i do think something's gained from partner's viewpoint... you're right that i'm looking for 6 anyway, but is it possible that partner can look for more if he knows of the double fit? not arguing with you, just asking

[Chamaco]

luke warm, on Nov 21 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

you're right that i'm looking for 6 anyway, but is it possible that partner can look for more if he knows of the double fit? not arguing with you, just asking

I know you are not arguing :-), I simply think that - for this specific hand- the level of the right contract depends only on top controls, not on double fit.
Holding ♠ 9 ♥ Q97542 ♦ AKT42 ♣ 4
we want to know about the 3 missing aces and the trump K, that's it.

And the controls can be checked directly with 4NT, without thge need of further interaction.
If pard has 4 keycards we'll bid the grand.

[keylime]

4♦, clearcut. Tell pard where you live. His intermediate honors in the other two suits will shrink up, his big honors increase.

That, and I don't like 4NT RKC for hearts, I use Kickback (4♠ is RKC for hearts).

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Nov 21 2004, 01:21 PM, said:

Typically, for 4♦ I'm holding: xx, Qxxxx, AKxxx, Kx when I make this call.

I'm sure you're usually holding 13 cards.

So you have x Qxxxx AKxxx Kx. If partner has the A or Q of clubs, comes out to about the same as the actual hand.

[Chamaco]

keylime, on Nov 22 2004, 04:53 AM, said:

4♦, clearcut. Tell pard where you live. His intermediate honors in the other two suits will shrink up, his big honors increase.

That, and I don't like 4NT RKC for hearts, I use Kickback (4♠ is RKC for hearts).

Who cares about his intermediate honors ? :-)
Let's not talk in abstract but be specific and look at the specific posted hand:

♠ 9 ♥ Q97542 ♦ AKT42 ♣ 4

What do I need for slam ?
I am not interested in pard's intermediates or potential misfit/double fit in side suits.
I only need Keycards.
Even if he has wasted QJs in the black suits, slam is still on based purely on the 3 missing aces and trump K.


Anyways when I have time (probably in the weekend), I'll run some simulations cmparing bidding and results assuming that :

1) we bid 4D and if pard signs off because of side suit misfit we respect his choice and pass out (if we do not accept signoff, then it's much better to bid 4NT right away = unrevealing auction often avoid a killing lead)

2) we bid 4NT right away and proceed using RKCB.

I will post the results.

-----

BTW, I also prefer Kickback 4S but this was for beginners-intermediate.

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2004, 01:21 AM, said:

keylime, on Nov 22 2004, 04:53 AM, said:

4♦, clearcut. Tell pard where you live. His intermediate honors in the other two suits will shrink up, his big honors increase.

That, and I don't like 4NT RKC for hearts, I use Kickback (4♠ is RKC for hearts).

Who cares about his intermediate honors ? :-)
Let's not talk in abstract but be specific and look at the specific posted hand:

♠ 9 ♥ Q97542 ♦ AKT42 ♣ 4

What do I need for slam ?
I am not interested in pard's intermediates or potential misfit/double fit in side suits.
I only need Keycards.
Even if he has wasted QJs in the black suits, slam is still on based purely on the 3 missing aces and trump K.


Anyways when I have time (probably in the weekend), I'll run some simulations cmparing bidding and results assuming that :

1) we bid 4D and if pard signs off because of side suit misfit we respect his choice and pass out (if we do not accept signoff, then it's much better to bid 4NT right away = unrevealing auction often avoid a killing lead)

2) we bid 4NT right away and proceed using RKCB.

I will post the results.

-----

BTW, I also prefer Kickback 4S but this was for beginners-intermediate.

Mauro: Pard is a good player (well he decided to play with US ) and will know the importance of his black suit aces and the Q or J♦ as well as the negatives of black kings and queens and xxx in ♦'s, but only after we bid 4♦.

Who is in a better position to judge the final contract here, him or us? We know partner has:

1. At least 5 (potential) cover cards (the way I play)
2. 12+ HCP
3. At least four trump.

Pretty vague if you ask me.

OTOH, when we bid 4♦ we transmit:

1. At least an opening hand (OK, he knew that)
2. At least ten cards in the red suits
3. (Subtly, and perhaps, more importantly) A hand that has some flaw that doesn't allow us to take direct control over 2N. If I held: x, KQxxxx, AKQxx, x then 4N is easy.

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Nov 22 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

Mauro: Pard is a good player (well he decided to play with US ) and will know the importance of his black suit aces and the Q or J♦ as well as the negatives of black kings and queens and xxx in ♦'s, but only after we bid 4♦.

Who is in a better position to judge the final contract here, him or us? We know partner has:

1. At least 5 (potential) cover cards (the way I play)
2. 12+ HCP
3. At least four trump.

Pretty vague if you ask me.

OTOH, when we bid 4♦ we transmit:

1. At least an opening hand (OK, he knew that)
2. At least ten cards in the red suits
3. (Subtly, and perhaps, more importantly) A hand that has some flaw that doesn't allow us to take direct control over 2N. If I held: x, KQxxxx, AKQxx, x then 4N is easy.

I am sure you and ur pard are good players and certainly better than me

I was just stating my convinction here that our hand need only one piece of information, and that we do not ned to get pard involved in choosing the level of the contract since we only need keycards and actually even a good player could signoff if smelling a side suit misfit, even in such a case where we need only keycards.

Bidding 4NT just takes off pressure from pard, we know more than he can never know :-)

[ArcLight]

Please define: Jacoby 2NT PLUS

Why not start by showing your singletons, rather than the ♦?

Bid 3♣

That lets pard re-evaluate his hand. If he has a concentration in ♣ he'll sign off in 4♥. Maybe he has strength in ♠ and the trump Ace and/or King.
After pards 3♠ cue bid, you cue bid 4♦. Followed up with RKCBW.
Give the slam a chance.

(While its possible game will go down, I think thats unlikely and overly pessimistic)

[inquiry]

Hi.. rather than dilute this thread, which deals with jacoby 2NT, I will describe jacoby 2NT Plus in another thread here in the beginner/intermediate group, and I will use this very hand in that that discussion.

Jacoby 2NT plus is described on the bridgematters website, and is part of the ETM Victory bidding system (but can be used by any system that is currently playing jacoby 2NT). Here is a link to the jacoby 2NT plus on their webpage http://www.bridgematters.com/jplus.htm

The following is a link to the jacoby 2NT plus method, including what I consider is its pluses http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...indpost&p=45117

ben