[gwnn]

Hanoi5, on 2012-June-12, 11:57, said:

I think the reason to pass (I'm not sure I would have followed that road myself) is:

♠Axx
♥Axx
♦AKQxxx
♣X

(1♦)-???

We're in the same predicament, sort of. The difference is that diamonds are more likely to be a suit and 2♦ is not natural in most systems but I guess the essence is the same.

Sorry, I don't understand this post. Yes, both hands should pass (the club hand over 1C, the diamond hand over 1D). But what is the reason you are talking about?

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-13, 00:04, said:

I do not know of any good player who plays 1m 3m as stopper ask though I'm sure they exist. I would easily assume natural undiscussed (eg, playing with someone from a completely different continent like ish I would be 99 % sure he would play it that way and interpret it that way though it is undiscussed).

In England it's common to play (1m) 3m as a stopper-ask, even amongst the top players. Maybe this is because of our 4-card major heritage.

[han]

In the Netherlands (1C) - 3C is usually played as Ghestem or stopper ask, natural is uncommon. On the other hand, (1C) - 2C is often played as natural at the top, perhaps because of all the short club pairs.

[rbforster]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-13, 00:04, said:

I do not know of any good player who plays 1m 3m as stopper ask though I'm sure they exist. I would easily assume natural undiscussed (eg, playing with someone from a completely different continent like ish I would be 99 % sure he would play it that way and interpret it that way though it is undiscussed).

In my circles (not top experts certainly, but reasonable US players), the majority play (1m)-3m as stopper ask and a minority play it as a regular 3m preempt. I don't know anyone who plays it as strong natural.

[JLOGIC]

Guess it is an american (expert) thing? Just sent out a mass text to make sure I'm not going crazy, I will be shocked if even 1 person says stopper ask

Quote

In the Netherlands (1C) - 3C is usually played as Ghestem or stopper ask, natural is uncommon. On the other hand, (1C) - 2C is often played as natural at the top, perhaps because of all the short club pairs.

I play 1C-2C as natural in my two most regular partnerships even against 3+ club and still think natural 3m is better than stopper ask (no comment on ghestem). It's like a normal overcall vs a preempt. How often are you going to have a stopper ask when there is only 1 suit available that you cant just start with double anyways. I would think a preempt in their minor is much more common. I guess if it's a 5+ diamond (or 4441) I would play stopper ask since thats like a 1M opener, I have never discussed this though since that is not that common to see in USA (though I now will!).

[JLOGIC]

double post

[JLOGIC]

Sample of results:

I ask "how do you like to play 1m-(3m)?" When they say natural, I say "do you know any top american who plays it as stopper ask"

Warren Spector: No,and I'm on the phone with Mike Becker and he does not either
Joe Grue: over 1 of a minor? No haha (assume this includes Curtis Cheek)
Sheri Weinstock: I do not (assume she knows what she and Fred play)
John Hurd: No, but I like to play it over 1D but no one else will do it.
Kevin Bathurst: I think it must be close to 100 % that do not play it as stopper ask
Jdonn: Maybe 16 years ago
Shane Blanchard: I do not (assume this includes Bob Blanchard).
Mike Passell: No.
Bob Hamman: Not for a long time
Geoff Hampson: Bad players do

Maybe a slightly biased sample since its people from my phone list, but I can't imagine it's that far off. This has been pretty enlightening and interesting, I never would have thought the top players in some other countries played stopper ask over 1C, it seems pretty insane to me though I can see it over 1D depending on the type of diamond involved.

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-13, 12:19, said:

Geoff Hampson: Bad players do

So, I was right. It is standard.

[lalldonn]

To clarify, I have been playing bridge for 16 years. I was trying to imply that have been playing it as natural ever since I had >0 years of experience.

I am still not totally normal, I like to play any direct suit overcall of a suit with a minimum length of 4 or less as natural (perhaps excluding "5+ or 4441", never really thought about that) whereas almost everyone in the US of all skill levels play Michaels at least over 3+ openings.

I don't think there is a single auction where I play the first bid by my side is a stopper ask other than (1M) 3M (which I have barely used), and I don't recall missing it at all though perhaps I don't even think about it since I am not used to having it. I know I have bid (1m) 3m natural many times, even 4m sometimes.

[Phil]

lalldonn, on 2012-June-13, 13:24, said:

I don't think there is a single auction where I play the first bid by my side is a stopper ask other than (1M) 3M (which I have barely used).

Not (2M) 3M?

[lalldonn]

No, I like michaels and leaping michaels together. Lower one doesn't create a force and lets you play 3NT.

[the hog]

lalldonn, on 2012-June-13, 14:13, said:

No, I like michaels and leaping michaels together. Lower one doesn't create a force and lets you play 3NT.

Just curious what you do over 2S with
xx
Ax
Ax
AKQJxxx

If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?
If you x ?

[lalldonn]

the hog, on 2012-June-13, 16:06, said:

Just curious what you do over 2S with
xx
Ax
Ax
AKQJxxx

If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?
If you x ?

Nope not 3C, that's an interesting suggestion though! If I was fortunate enough to hold that hand for the first time ever I would double and then cuebid if partner responded 2NT (lebensohl, as he would with that hand) or bid a forcing 4C if he responded in a suit showing values, as slam chances would be excellent.

[JLOGIC]

the hog, on 2012-June-13, 16:06, said:

Just curious what you do over 2S with
xx
Ax
Ax
AKQJxxx

If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?
If you x ?

He would probably double and over lebensohl (or whatever) bid 3S and hope his partner with a spade stopper bid 3N.

I do not understand what the point of your argument is. If you have a bid that shows a solid suit, stoppers outside, no stopper in their suit, and 9 tricks, and pick up a textbook hand for that it will probably work out well (though in your example hand, it would work out the same).

He will probably do better than the people who play stopper ask when he can michaels and stop in 4 of a minor rather than bid leaping michaels (or if you would have overcalled 3H with his hand instead of bidding leaping michaels, then he will do better than you when he finds his good 5 of a minor game or 4 of a minor partial instead of playing 3H sometimes). He will also do better on slam hands over leaping michaels, since his lower limit will be much higher given that he had 2 ways to bid michaels.

Over 2H-(3H) it is even better since he can also stop in 3S.

All conventions have plusses and minuses, and choosing to play one over another implies that you think you gain more often than you lose by doing so. Constructing a hand where the other convention works better is pointless, I doubt jdonn thought there were never hands where not playing stopper ask will lose lol.

[lalldonn]

It's funny, I wanted to limit the sarcasm but part of me wanted to ask if anyone plays a 3♠ overcall of 3♥ as a stopper ask, just in case they pick up Ax xx Ax AKQJxxx

[the hog]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-13, 16:20, said:

He would probably double and over lebensohl (or whatever) bid 3S and hope his partner with a spade stopper bid 3N.

I do not understand what the point of your argument is. If you have a bid that shows a solid suit, stoppers outside, no stopper in their suit, and 9 tricks, and pick up a textbook hand for that it will probably work out well (though in your example hand, it would work out the same).

He will probably do better than the people who play stopper ask when he can michaels and stop in 4 of a minor rather than bid leaping michaels (or if you would have overcalled 3H with his hand instead of bidding leaping michaels, then he will do better than you when he finds his good 5 of a minor game or 4 of a minor partial instead of playing 3H sometimes). He will also do better on slam hands over leaping michaels, since his lower limit will be much higher given that he had 2 ways to bid michaels.

Over 2H-(3H) it is even better since he can also stop in 3S.

All conventions have plusses and minuses, and choosing to play one over another implies that you think you gain more often than you lose by doing so. Constructing a hand where the other convention works better is pointless, I doubt jdonn thought there were never hands where not playing stopper ask will lose lol.

No argument. I was seriously curious. I actually held a similar hand, (with 7 solid Cs), over a 2H opening exactly 1 year ago in the VCC. in Melbourne. Pd had no H stopper and we ended up in 4C 1 off which was an average.

[the hog]

lalldonn, on 2012-June-13, 16:36, said:

It's funny, I wanted to limit the sarcasm but part of me wanted to ask if anyone plays a 3♠ overcall of 3♥ as a stopper ask, just in case they pick up Ax xx Ax AKQJxxx

Sorry, but that is a silly comment as pd is FAR more likely to have a S stopper on this auction than a H stopper if the opps open 2H. On your posted hand I would just bid 3NT as I suspect most would.

[han]

Maybe reread the post you quoted.

[the hog]

Yes ok. I misinterpreted his comment..

[lalldonn]

No offense taken, even interpreted correctly it's a silly comment