[Rebound]

Folks, I don't consider myself to be that good a bridge player, but I think I am able to understand pretty much any convention or bidding system and I like to think I can spot the good ones when I see them and alter my preferred system accordingly. Of course, sometimes, a treatment or convention is incompatable with the system all together and must be rejected regardless of its quality, but then, I try to ask whether perhaps an entirely different system might be better.

My current system is rather old-fashioned but I think it still works very well. However, from what I have read on this board, most of my methods in precision are looked upon with disdain.

So, here's what we play, as briefly as possible while still giving a fairly thorough description.

1♣ 16+ (i'm thinking of going over to the balanced 11-12/16+ option.)
1♦ 11-15, length 2+
5cM, 11-15
1NT 13-15
2♣ 11-15 the usual, 5+ clubs, maybe 4cM
2♦ mini-roman
2M - weak, 2NT - minors 5-11.

Over 1♣ - 1NT 8-10 or 15+, 2nt 11-13, 3NT 14-(poor)15, 1♦ 0-8, 1♥/♠/2♣/♦ 9+HCP 5-card (or longer) suit. 2♥/2♠/3♣/3♦ 9+ 3-suiter short in bid suit. Over interferance, pass is 0-5, any bid shows 5-8 and double shows 9+.

In general, jump-shifts are mini-splinters (although I am interested in fit-showing jumps.)

We play doubles for penalties as often as possible (pretty much anything higher than the 1-level), Jordan over interferance. Here's one that will get some laughs, over opponents' pre-empts, dbl is penalty and NT is 3-suit takeout. 4C - always keycard ask except when it is a simple club rebid. Stayman always promises a 4cM, also play Smolen, lebeshol.

Please let me know what you think and feel free to be brutal - I want suggestions for improvements or potential overhauls. Also, I'm wondering what you all think of the CC Wei version where 1NT guarantees no 4CM and all responses are shape/strength showing but perhaps that should be a new thread (brilliant, Rebound! lol). It obviously doesn't fit in with the system Free has described in another thread, but I would still be curious to know what you think of it in the appropriate context, please, Free?

p.s. all diamonds still appear as orange rectangles. Anybody know what's up with that?

[pclayton]

Pick up a copy of Rigal's or Berkowitz' book on Precision.

As far as your current methods go, even though some of the ideas are 30+ years old, its still playable, but I'd work to update a lot of it. In order of preference, I'd change the following:

1. Make your 1N opener 14-16. It gives you a 2 point range for your 1♦ openers with balanced hands (12-13). It gives you some 'incremental' safety (here's a little secret too - many pairs treat 13-15 as a weak NT, so they have the penalty double, but 14-16 gets the 'strong NT' treatment, so there isn't a penalty double; go figure). A 14-16 NT also allows you to have a 17-19 NT rebid after 1C-1D-1N, thus getting rid of the 19-21 2N opener (or rebid in your case).

2. Make your 1D response 0-7, not 0-8. Yes I know the old bromide is 26 points makes a game, but I can't EVER remember getting overboard with a 16 opposite an 8 (especially since the balanced hands are 17+).

3. Keep the jump shifts as mini-splinters. Fit Showing Jumps work best when there is competition.

If you like these ideas, you can implement them with minimal discussion. There are a lot of other good ideas out there, you just have to experiment a little and see what you like.

Hope this helps.

[whereagles]

Your system is just fine. There hasn't been any major breakthroughs in precision, just some minor tweaks, like those pclayton pointed out. Most of the useful novelties and gadgetry have to do with competitive bidding, not systems themselves.

[Rebound]

Well, there are certainly alternatives, though, aren't there. E.g. relays, other meanings for 1♦, 2♣, 2♦.

Further, I'm interested to know which novelties and gadgets you are referring to against competition, and in what ways they may be preferred over our current treatments. If needed I can provide details. Not that I'm displeased with your assessment ;-)

[jtfanclub]

Quote

1. Make your 1N opener 14-16. It gives you a 2 point range for your 1♦ openers with balanced hands (12-13).

I haven't had any trouble with using 1NT as 12-15 and a 0 point range for my 1♦ openers with balanced hands*. Kinda nice to know, first, second and fourth seat, that 1♦ is unbalanced. This means, for example, that the auction 1♦-1♥-1NT promises a singleton heart. Much easier to evaluate your hand that way.

I've also had opponents get in a lot more trouble treating 1NT as weak than as strong. But maybe that's where I play.

I find Precision is still superior to SA or 2/1 across standard competition. A lot of that is probably familiarity issues- people aren't used to thinking in terms of Precision openings, and their defenses suffer as a result.

*We do open 1NT with a very poor 16, one what we don't have much hope to make 3NT across a balanced 8 count.

[the hog]

Rebound, it does not matter that much what you play as long as you and your partner are in synch. If I were playing Preicion, I'd certainly take Phil's suggestion of a 14-16 NT on board. I'd also play 2D as a multi and 2H as the 3 suited hand with short Ds. I would also open 2c only with a 6 card C suit, possibly with 4M, not 5C.

As to responses over 1C. I don't like 1N as 8-10 as this wrongsides the NT contract too often. Also have you considered transfer responses?
1H = S, 1S = H, 1N = a minor, 2C = 13+ bal, 2D = 8-10 bal.

[HeartA]

If a pick-up partner says (s)he plays precision, the first thing I ask is the minimum number of cards 1D opening guarantees. If the answer is 2, I refuse to play. My 1D garantees 4+ cards.

[the hog]

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.
eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for
Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

[HeartA]

The_Hog, on Nov 9 2004, 06:34 PM, said:

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.
eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for
Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

Why is it foolish? I value features more than HCP.

My 1NT is 13-15. With Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx, I open 1NT. What is the problem?
For 11-12 HCP without 4-card ♦, I pass. At 3rd/4th position, and 12 HCP, I bid 1NT or pass depending on the quality of cards.

[luke warm]

very good points, ron... our 1d is canape (unless clubs is 2nd suit, if <17 hcp), guaranteed 4+... course nt is 12-15

[the hog]

You did not correctly read or perhaps did not understand my post. I said you cannot look at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system; therefore to say to a pick up pd "I am not playing if D are not 4" is a very foolish comment. You need to discuss the range of 1N and what to do with flat hands in the 11-12 range which do not have a 4 card D suit as well. A bidding system is a unified entity, not a rag bag of random bids and ideas.

If you open my example hand with 1N then you are not playing a 13-15 NT as you have just stated, but rather a 12-15 NT. An opponent who miscounts your hand may well feel aggrieved at your mis explanation.

Further what about Axx Ax xxx Kxxxx, Do you open this 1N as well? Most Precision exponents would open this hand - so your focussing on one aspect of the system at the expense of the rest of the structure is foolish, particularly but not solely with a pick up partner.

[HeartA]

As you said, the number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening, which is very true. How many Ds for 1N opening reveals a lot of things about the whole system. So "how many Ds 1D opening implies is NOT an isolation issue.

I refuse to play a system that 1D opening says almost nothing about D.

[jtfanclub]

Quote

You did not correctly read or perhaps did not understand my post. I said you cannot look at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system; therefore to say to a pick up pd  "I am not playing if D are not 4" is a very foolish comment.

That's not what he said. What he said was, he asked how many diamonds the other person's Precison was and if the answer was two, he would not play it. He did not ask the other person to change their system.

Virtually any two players can start with Precision with 1 diamond promising 4+ and quickly answer a couple of questions and start playing- all of the other bids naturally stem from the trifecta of 1 club-1 diamond- 1NT, and most Precision systems have the same requirements for the other two bids. However, nebulous diamond and one diamond 4+ are not compatable- you can't simply declare "OK, we'll play your system, but with diamonds 4+". It doesn't work.

Quote

Further what about Axx Ax xxx Kxxxx, Do you open this 1N as well?

As a rule, Precision systems with 1♦ promising 4+ have agreed to pass all 11 counts (or fewer) that have no singleton, five card major, or six card minor, often with a one point deduction on requirements for third hand. So it's foolish to ask that sort of question. If you know how many diamonds 1♦ promises, you already know the answer.

[the hog]

"That's not what he said. What he said was, he asked how many diamonds the other person's Precison was and if the answer was two, he would not play it. "

Another one who does not speak English.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Nov 10 2004, 01:36 AM, said:

Another one who does not speak English.

It was in perfect English. You simply chose a strawman to fight instead of reading what he (and I) wrote.

[the hog]

Note:
"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play."

Not:
"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play (this or it).

English 101!

[Rebound]

HeartA, on Nov 9 2004, 08:10 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 9 2004, 06:34 PM, said:

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.
eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for
Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

Why is it foolish? I value features more than HCP.

My 1NT is 13-15. With Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx, I open 1NT. What is the problem?
For 11-12 HCP without 4-card ♦, I pass. At 3rd/4th position, and 12 HCP, I bid 1NT or pass depending on the quality of cards.

I think this treatment rather defeats the purpose of opening 11-12 point hands early and often to get in the auction ahead of the opponents, one of the main design features of the precision system.

[HeartA]

Rebound, on Nov 10 2004, 02:58 AM, said:

I think this treatment rather defeats the purpose of opening 11-12 point hands early and often to get in the auction ahead of the opponents, one of the main design features of the precision system.

#1, inverted minor becomes useless, and D fit becomes very difficult to find.
#2, 1D opening does not use much space, opps can easily enter the auction. It may let opp to enter the auction earlier. If you don't open, your lho may not strong enough to open either.

The advantage of opening 1D with 2Ds only is that it also make it difficult for opps to find D fit.

[HeartA]

The_Hog, on Nov 10 2004, 01:45 AM, said:

Note:
"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play."

Not:
"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play (this or it).

English 101!

Is this forum about bridge or language? "play" can be a transitive verb or intransitive verb. "I refuse to play" is a perfect English sentence.

By the way, when I say "I refuse to play", I can mean I refuse to play it (the system), or refuse to play with him/her.

Take it wasy, Ron.

[Chamaco]

Rebound, on Nov 9 2004, 04:55 PM, said:

Over 1♣ - 1NT 8-10 or 15+, 2nt 11-13, 3NT 14-(poor)15

Using the 3NT response to 1♣ opener to show a 14-15 is self preempting.
You may have a fit which would com out only if you look for it at a 4 lvel.
As a result you may easily miss a slam , or, at MP, play in 3NT while you have a better score in a major (or, alternatively, you may look for a fit, not find it, and have to play at a higher level the contract).

I'd prefer many of the alterntive schemes available:

- 1NT as unlimited 8+
- 1NT = 8-13 and 2NT = 14+
- 1NT = 8-10/14+ and 2NT = 11-13
- using the 1C:2M responses to discriminate better the balanced hands rather than using them for a "weak 2" type of hand
- any other solution I am unaware of