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Transfer or Stayman? Then what

#1 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 03:00

I'm sure there must be a theoretical way to bid this hand.

IMPs W V R

KTxxx
ATxx
xxx
x

I chose transfer and passed and it turned out well, but in hindsight maybe Stayman and then Spades if partner bides 2D?

Thanks in advance,

Simon
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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 03:05

yes stayman is better - firstly 4-4 (or even 5-4) fits are better than 5-2s and secondly, if partner shows hearts you're worth a game try or a jump to game depending on the scoring, vulnerability, etc.

some people play stayman followed by 2 as natural and invitational which would also be a good description of your hand.
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 04:35

Yes, what wank said.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 04:54

Do we know the strength of the opening 1NT bid?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 06:28

View Postwank, on 2012-May-13, 03:05, said:

some people play stayman followed by 2 as natural and invitational which would also be a good description of your hand.

It seems a bit short of invitational, especially opposite a chronic upgrader; but if it is considered strong enough to invite and if 2M is invitational after Stayman, we would Stayman, followed by 2H if opener bids 2D as a mini-Smolen.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 09:10

Simon, it is difficult to answer a question on NT responses without knowing what the response scheme is or the NT range. For me, if this hand qualifies as invitational, the response would be 2NT which I use as 5 spades, 4 hearts and invitational strength. If partner corrected this to 3 of either major then we can raise to 4. Some alternatives are Stayman followed by 2 over 2 (showing the same hand as my 2NT but you play only 2 if partner has a minimum and 3 spades) and Stayman followed by 2 (Smolen-style, showing 5+ spades and 4 hearts). This latter method has the advantage that you can make a further try over 2, the downside comes on hands where you wanted to bid 2 to show something else.

If the hand does not qualify as invitational for your NT range then you either transfer, passing unless partner super-accepts, or Stayman and bid 2, if this shows a weak hand with both majors.

It is noteworthy that hands with the distributional strength for 4M opposite a fit, but not for 3NT opposite a max, are a common source of difficulties over a 1NT opening. It would not surprise me if NT structures increasingly evolved to find methods to accomodate such hands more comfortably in the future.
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#7 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-May-13, 12:19

With this hand I would bid Stayman then sign-off in 2 if partner denied a 4+ major. (I play a weak NT.)

If I had a similar hand with enough strength to invite game, with some partners I would bid Stayman then transfer to with 3 over a 2 response. Partner can now complete the transfer to decline the invite, or cue, bid 3NT or 4 to accept.
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#8 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-May-14, 02:09

For what it is worth, if you play that 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S is invitational with 5 spades, while 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H shows a weak hand with both majors, then it makes good sense to agree that the second auction shows spades at least as long as hearts. That way opener will always correct to 2S with equal length and play the hand more often.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#9 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-May-14, 16:05

View Posthan, on 2012-May-14, 02:09, said:

For what it is worth, if you play that 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S is invitational with 5 spades, while 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H shows a weak hand with both majors, then it makes good sense to agree that the second auction shows spades at least as long as hearts. That way opener will always correct to 2S with equal length and play the hand more often.


That doesn't make much sense to me. Swap the majors round so you now hold A10xx K10xxx xxx x and suppose that partner opens a 15-17 NT. You can envisage a possible game opposite a 4-card msjor so you'd like to start with Stayman. However, what do you do over a 2 response? Playing normal methods, this hand bids 1NT-2-2-2.
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#10 User is online   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-May-14, 18:37

The method Han describes is "normal" for a lot of players in this country. ;)
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2012-May-14, 22:24

The second auction Han covers (using 1 NT - 2 - 2 - 2 as a runout of 1 NT) is often referred to as "Soft Stayman" or "Garbage Stayman" by expert players.

I believe that with A10xx K10xxx xxx x, those playing Soft Stayman transfer to and then bid 2 --- 1 NT - 2 - 2 - 2 . This would show invitational values, 5 s, and at least 4 s. Since responder might have more than 4 s, opener can still support with 3 s and a max by bidding 3 . Responder can then correct to 3 NT when holding just 4 s or bid 4 with 5 or more s. When opener holds 4 s and a max, opener simply bids 4 .

Transferring the other way -- 1 NT - 2 - 2 - 3 shows a 5-5 game forcing major hand.
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#12 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2012-May-16, 21:58

Assume that no 5-card majors in NT, I would play crawling Stayman.

1NT - 2
pass any major response
bid 2 over 2

In my system, 1NT - 2 - 2 - 2 would be invitational.

I like to play
1NT - 2 - 2 - 3 as 5-5 invitational (pass or correct to 3)
and 1NT - 2 - 2 - 4 as 5-5 game-forcing (pass or correct to 4)
since the NT opener cannot have 2 doubletons, an 8-card fit is guaranteed in this case.

View Postjallerton, on 2012-May-14, 16:05, said:

That doesn't make much sense to me. Swap the majors round so you now hold A10xx K10xxx xxx x and suppose that partner opens a 15-17 NT. You can envisage a possible game opposite a 4-card msjor so you'd like to start with Stayman. However, what do you do over a 2 response? Playing normal methods, this hand bids 1NT-2-2-2.

I would transfer to than bid to show 5-4 in -
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