Help
Matchpoints, both vulnerable.
Partner deals and opens 5♠.
You hold:
void
AJ42
AQ6
JT7653
What call do you make, and why?
nick
Page 1 of 1
What do I bid now? ...
#1
- Group: Yellows
- Posts: 774
- Joined: 2003-June-07
- Location:Chatswood, Sydney
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:36
.
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:42
The first thing I do is raise my jaw off the ground. Then I pass.
"Phil" on BBO
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,606
- Joined: 2003-June-06
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:45
This should theoretically ask you to bid 6 with one spade honour. I think you should pass. If u missed a slam, ask ur pd to buy u a meal. u deserve it.
#4
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:45
There are, i suspect, just two standard meainings for a 5S opening bid.
Meaning number one.. Bid slam with a top spade honor, bid grand slam with two.
Meaining number two... I am really weak and if they are going to bid something, they are going to have to start at the six level trying to find their fit.
Is there any other?
Anyway, given these two standard meanings, what else can I do? If it is the first, I ahve to pass, as I lack a top honor. If it is the second, he is on his own now.. .hope he knows what he is doing. If he has some nasty hand like...
S-AKQJT9xxxx H-x D-xx C-void
He has clearly misbid.
Ben
Meaning number one.. Bid slam with a top spade honor, bid grand slam with two.
Meaining number two... I am really weak and if they are going to bid something, they are going to have to start at the six level trying to find their fit.
Is there any other?
Anyway, given these two standard meanings, what else can I do? If it is the first, I ahve to pass, as I lack a top honor. If it is the second, he is on his own now.. .hope he knows what he is doing. If he has some nasty hand like...
S-AKQJT9xxxx H-x D-xx C-void
He has clearly misbid.
Ben
--Ben--
#5
- mmm Duvel
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Belgium
- Interests:Duvel, Whisky
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:49
Pass...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,085
- Joined: 2004-March-26
- Location:Israel
Posted 2004-November-10, 10:55
Pass
Ben you have only 12 cards there.
Ben you have only 12 cards there.
#7
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 224
- Joined: 2004-June-09
- Location:Virginia, USA
Posted 2004-November-10, 11:13
partner is QJxxxxxx(xx) - - AK(QJ) or KJxxxxxxxxx(x) - - AK(Q) (I am not counting the x's so don't comment)
I am to bid 1 more for each top spade honor I hold. If partner has a zillion spades and a weak hand, then it means I need a new partner.
I am to bid 1 more for each top spade honor I hold. If partner has a zillion spades and a weak hand, then it means I need a new partner.
#8
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2004-November-10, 11:28
Well, I think it's far more likely to be dealt
KQJxxxxxx
x
x
xx
than
QJTxxxxx
A
A
AKQ
and therefore I think 5S is much better used as preemptive than to show a monster with two trump losers.
But hey that's just me...
KQJxxxxxx
x
x
xx
than
QJTxxxxx
A
A
AKQ
and therefore I think 5S is much better used as preemptive than to show a monster with two trump losers.
But hey that's just me...
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2004-November-10, 12:12
whereagles, on Nov 10 2004, 09:28 AM, said:
Well, I think it's far more likely to be dealt
KQJxxxxxx
x
x
xx
than
QJTxxxxx
A
A
AKQ
and therefore I think 5S is much better used as preemptive than to show a monster with two trump losers.
But hey that's just me...
KQJxxxxxx
x
x
xx
than
QJTxxxxx
A
A
AKQ
and therefore I think 5S is much better used as preemptive than to show a monster with two trump losers.
But hey that's just me...
Ah, another closet NAMYATS bidder
"Phil" on BBO
#10 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2004-November-10, 14:22
how can one open 5S preemptive? that seems silly. surely pard has a hand off the AK of trumps and is solid outside...you may wonder why he cant open 2C anad later bid keycard. Reason being his hand may be soemthing like QJT98xxx AK AKQ --- and keycard wont help him since he has a void. 5S preemptive makes no sense. Often you can jsut open 4 and theyre forced to X you there. Also you have no idea what partners hand is. He may be able to beat 5 of anything they bid.
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2004-November-10, 14:26
of course the actual example hand is interesting...(i just looked at it was more focused on what 5S means). IF partner has a solid hand missing two top spades, he is void in both red suits. he then must have solid clubs. he wouldnt have 11 spades since slam is good then even off the AK of trumps (they might be 1-1). and you have the jack of clubs...so assuming he isnt gambling on his small club living he has
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
#12
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 536
- Joined: 2003-May-28
- Location:Saltlake City
Posted 2004-November-10, 14:49
Jlall, on Nov 10 2004, 08:26 PM, said:
of course the actual example hand is interesting...(i just looked at it was more focused on what 5S means). IF partner has a solid hand missing two top spades, he is void in both red suits. he then must have solid clubs. he wouldnt have 11 spades since slam is good then even off the AK of trumps (they might be 1-1). and you have the jack of clubs...so assuming he isnt gambling on his small club living he has
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
haha, Justin, so you'd open 6S with 11 spades and hope for 1-1, right? That's a sound a opening I'd say.
#13
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2004-November-10, 14:57
I have just performed a little search of real world hands played on line that start with a bid of 5H or 5S. It seems that there is some education that is needed here, because after examining over 100 such hands, it is safe to say not one of them is a 5H or 5S opening bid.
Here is a sampling of what I found.
The following are just some (BAD) examples of what people are opening 5 of a major with. The hand Jlall showed (ten spades QJT and side AKQ in a suit), is the type of hand that should be opened 5H or 5S... Not these hands headed by AK of the long suit.
West North East South
- - Pass Pass
5♠ Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- - - Pass
5♠ Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- Pass Pass Pass
5♥ Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- - 5♠ Pass
Pass 5NT Pass 6♣
Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- - - 5♠
Pass 7♠ Pass Pass
Pass
West North East South
- - Pass 5♠
Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- Pass Pass 5♥
Dbl Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- - - Pass
Pass 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
Pass Pass Pass 5♠
Pass Pass Pass
West North East South
- - - Pass
Pass Pass 5♠ Pass
Pass Pass
Here is a sampling of what I found.
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
The following are just some (BAD) examples of what people are opening 5 of a major with. The hand Jlall showed (ten spades QJT and side AKQ in a suit), is the type of hand that should be opened 5H or 5S... Not these hands headed by AK of the long suit.
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - Pass Pass
5♠ Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - - Pass
5♠ Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- Pass Pass Pass
5♥ Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - 5♠ Pass
Pass 5NT Pass 6♣
Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - - 5♠
Pass 7♠ Pass Pass
Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - Pass 5♠
Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- Pass Pass 5♥
Dbl Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - - Pass
Pass 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
Pass Pass Pass 5♠
Pass Pass Pass
Scoring: IMP
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.
West North East South
- - - Pass
Pass Pass 5♠ Pass
Pass Pass
--Ben--
#14
- Group: Yellows
- Posts: 774
- Joined: 2003-June-07
- Location:Chatswood, Sydney
Posted 2004-November-10, 15:22
I was wondering how many would get the gag.
Assume a 5♠ opening is the expert treatment of a two-loser hand missing both top honours, asking partner to bid 6 with either Ace or King and 7 with both.
Only Justin solved this correctly, albeit at his second turn - too late methinks at the table.
Ben correctly in his first post suggests that the 5♠ opener is as described but then woodenly passes as he fails to look deeper into the hand.
If you hold both red Aces and partner promises 1st round control in all suits except trumps, then he has voids in ♥ and diamonds and therefore long long spades and the top club cards.
nick
Assume a 5♠ opening is the expert treatment of a two-loser hand missing both top honours, asking partner to bid 6 with either Ace or King and 7 with both.
Only Justin solved this correctly, albeit at his second turn - too late methinks at the table.
Ben correctly in his first post suggests that the 5♠ opener is as described but then woodenly passes as he fails to look deeper into the hand.
If you hold both red Aces and partner promises 1st round control in all suits except trumps, then he has voids in ♥ and diamonds and therefore long long spades and the top club cards.
nick
.
#15
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2004-November-10, 15:27
nickf, on Nov 10 2004, 01:22 PM, said:
I was wondering how many would get the gag.
Assume a 5♠ opening is the expert treatment of a two-loser hand missing both top honours, asking partner to bid 6 with either Ace or King and 7 with both.
Only Justin solved this correctly, albeit at his second turn - too late methinks at the table.
Ben correctly in his first post suggests that the 5♠ opener is as described but then woodenly passes as he fails to look deeper into the hand.
If you hold both red Aces and partner promises 1st round control in all suits except trumps, then he has voids in ♥ and diamonds and therefore long long spades and the top club cards.
nick
Assume a 5♠ opening is the expert treatment of a two-loser hand missing both top honours, asking partner to bid 6 with either Ace or King and 7 with both.
Only Justin solved this correctly, albeit at his second turn - too late methinks at the table.
Ben correctly in his first post suggests that the 5♠ opener is as described but then woodenly passes as he fails to look deeper into the hand.
If you hold both red Aces and partner promises 1st round control in all suits except trumps, then he has voids in ♥ and diamonds and therefore long long spades and the top club cards.
nick
Partner can't hold:
QJTxxxxxxxx
void
void
AK ?
I've seem this hand before Nick. I think you need to add the Q or a few more clubs for the analysis to work.
"Phil" on BBO
#16
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2004-November-10, 15:30
Yes, neat hand. Justin gets full credit for solving... i looked at it, said, silly, used the opportunity to try to explain what 5M should mean since I know so many don't understand (see hands above), and moved on. My bad.
I think justin is 100% on the 11 spade issue.
I think justin is 100% on the 11 spade issue.
--Ben--
#17
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-March-07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Laos
- Interests:Wagner and Bridge
Posted 2004-November-10, 15:31
I pass. Was this a hand you played in Istanbul Nick?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#18
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 536
- Joined: 2003-May-28
- Location:Saltlake City
Posted 2004-November-10, 15:35
Jlall, on Nov 10 2004, 08:26 PM, said:
of course the actual example hand is interesting...(i just looked at it was more focused on what 5S means). IF partner has a solid hand missing two top spades, he is void in both red suits. he then must have solid clubs. he wouldnt have 11 spades since slam is good then even off the AK of trumps (they might be 1-1). and you have the jack of clubs...so assuming he isnt gambling on his small club living he has
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
QJT98xxxxx
--
--
AKQ
if this is his hand, 7C is cold. So if you REALLY trust partner, you can bid 7C. LOL.
So 6S opening means partner should bid 7S would SA and pass otherwise, right?
#19 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2004-November-11, 02:05
nickf, on Nov 10 2004, 04:22 PM, said:
Only Justin solved this correctly, albeit at his second turn - too late methinks at the table.
nick
nick
you'll note in my first post i didnt actually give an answer. I just said what 5S means, so im not sure how it was "at my second turn". Anyways, junyi yes i would only raise a 6S opener to 7 with the ace of trumps.
#20
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 144
- Joined: 2004-August-20
- Interests:INTERNET reading
Posted 2004-November-11, 03:34
I think 5♠ should indicate a solid ♠ suit without enough side ctrls,otherwise 4♠ first.So i would bid 6♠.
My BLOG on bridge game:
bridge blog001:
http://cf71632485.spaces.live.com/blog/cns...!1015.entry
bridge blog002:
http://cvl7163cf2485...st-22291-1.html
"You are not thinking. You are merely being logical". - Neils Bohr
bridge blog001:
http://cf71632485.spaces.live.com/blog/cns...!1015.entry
bridge blog002:
http://cvl7163cf2485...st-22291-1.html
"You are not thinking. You are merely being logical". - Neils Bohr
Page 1 of 1
West North East South
- 5♥ Pass 6♥
Pass Pass Pass
This hand type was very common, where what is needed is total aces, not specific ones to the trump suit. Open somehting forcing then use blackwood... or if 4NT is blackwood right off the bat, use that. Success here does not make it right 5♥ was the wrong bid, and over 5♥, 6♥ was the wrong reply. Funny, here two wrongs made a right.