BBO Discussion Forums: 1M - 2C as GF or a 3 card limit raise - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1M - 2C as GF or a 3 card limit raise How does this work?

#1 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,169
  • Joined: 2011-November-21
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Overbidding

Posted 2012-May-09, 06:56

Anyone got any good notes for this? Playing

1M-2M as 3 card support 6-9
1M-3M as 8-10 4 card support and
2NT as a limit raise plus

10-11 with 3 card support is hard to bid, so having that folded into 2C would help a lot
1

#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-May-09, 07:04

Opener bids 2 relay unless he has a hand which has (a) exceptional shape (e.g. 5-5) and (b) enough strength to accept the invite. Over 2, responder rebids 2M with the invite, 2NT with a balanced GF and anything else naturally as GF with 5+ clubs. If opener rebids something other than 2, responder jumps to 4M with the "invite only" hand.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#3 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,169
  • Joined: 2011-November-21
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Overbidding

Posted 2012-May-09, 07:20

To easy - cheers
0

#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,802
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-May-09, 07:28

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-May-09, 07:20, said:

To easy - cheers

Till the next hand bids over 2, be interested to see how you sort this out over interference 1-(P)-2-(3) for example, it would appear to me that you can't sit this undoubled opposite the invite if you want to cover all the other bases.
0

#5 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2012-May-09, 08:20

we play this slightly differently.

over 2, opener:
bids 2 with a hand interested in game opposite the limit raise, but without slam interest opposite the limit raise
bids 2M with a hand that does not have interest in game opposite a limit raise
bids 2N with a balanced 18-19
bids 3 with a hand that has 4 card clubs and a clear GF opposite the 3 card limit raise
bids anything else at the 3 level with a natural slam try.

Over opener's 2D, responder:
bids 2M with a bad 3 card limit raise
bids 4M with a good 3 card limit raise
bids 3N with a 4-3-3-3 13-15
bids anything else with a hand that has a club game force

Over openers 2M, responder:
passes with the limit raise
bids 3N with a 4-3-3-3 13-15
does anything else with a hand that has a club game force.

This structure makes slam bidding slightly easier, as opener can show/deny extra values early in an auction.
Chris Gibson
0

#6 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2012-May-09, 08:23

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-May-09, 07:28, said:

Till the next hand bids over 2, be interested to see how you sort this out over interference 1-(P)-2-(3) for example, it would appear to me that you can't sit this undoubled opposite the invite if you want to cover all the other bases.


This is wrong. The only hand that you can't sit this undoubled is opposite a game force with clubs. The invite can pass.

Our agreement is that opener's X shows interest opposite the invite but is a hand that doesn't fit clubs, 4C is a hand that fits clubs and is interested opposite an invite, and that pass is a hand that wasn't accepting the invite. This puts you in a much better position than, let's say, a 1M-1N (forcing)-(3) auction.
Chris Gibson
0

#7 User is offline   lowerline 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 553
  • Joined: 2004-March-29
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2012-May-09, 09:36

1 - 2
2 = any minimum
2 = GF with exactly 4crd (5-5 bids 3)
other bids are natural and GF

1-2
2 = any minimum without 4crd
2 = natural any strength (but GF 5-5 bids 3)
2 = GF with exactly 4crd (5-5 bids 3)
other bids are natural and GF

after 1M-2-2 only 2M is not forcing (or maybe also 3 if that is your style of 2/1)
after 1-2-2-2 opener can pass with a minimum

Steven
1

#8 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-May-09, 09:47

I will provide a link to the method very similar to this that I played in the past mostly with mishovnbg. But first, i have to point out that my method includes an opening system that probably different from what you play. I use a semi-forcing 1NT, which never includes any type of raise (and 1M-2M is "anti-semi constructive", that is, I play this raise as weak, bad 8 hcp or less!!!, down to about 3 or 4 hcp and 3 card support, and jump raise as same hand, but four card support). Also, my my 1M opening can not include a club suit unless strong (2H and 2S opening bids are 5-4 or better shape in the major (5) and club (4) and "minimum" opening hands (up to a bad 16). So for instance, you do not expect 1m-2c-3c type auction unless opener has stronger than the 2M opener. I think the method after 2C is playable without too much modification if you don't play such distorted methods as I do (did), but keep those restrictions in mind when checking the methods I play

For me, the 2C bid has four possible elements.

1. 5+ clubs game force
2. 3 card major support, 8 to 12 hcp (if the 12 would not be good enough to force to game), most use forcing 1nt for this hand
3. 4 card major support, 7 - 9(10) hcp
4. balanced (10)11+ hcp without 3 card support

Opener's first assumption is that 2 shows the weak hands. Since partner can be as light as 8 hcp and three card support, or perhaps 12 and three hcp, opener first conveys rather or not he has game interest opposite such a hand. If opener would PASS a game try where responder has 11-12 hcp and three card support, opener REBIDS two of his major (there is one exception, if opening bid was 1 and opener has four hearts and a WEAK hand, he rebids 2). If opener would bid game opposite a 11-12 hcp raise with three cards, he rebids 2. NOTE, a frequent auction is 1M-2C-2M-pass where responder has balanced 10,11 hcp and doubleton support. This has worked well for me.

The 2 rebid shows better than a minimum opening hand (or at least good distribution), but says nothing at all about diamonds. Over 2, responder rebids 2M only with the trump raise and weak hand (good 8 to 12). This bid is forcing one round, as opener must have extra for his 2 bid. RESPONDER does not jump to 3M over 2 with 11-12 (2M is forcing), as the jump shows a true 2/1 GF and starts slam investigation (using Serious 3NT, so opener can seperate a "good hand" from a "bad hand" for his 2 bid which already showed extras). You occassional get one level too high if responder is on minimum "raise" and opener is on minimum too good not to rebid 2M. But you usually have company because the auction at the other tables went 1M-2M-GAME TRY also. You gain on hands where responder would have invited at the 3 level and opener is really weak, because your auction would be 1M-2C-2M-pass where you are in 2M when other tables were in 3M

There is one special case, where opener has a minimum hand, and 5S and 4+H's. Here opener rebids 2 (alert, minimum hand) instead of 2. However with this pattern and extra values opener still rebids 2).

Dealing with interference. Should the opponents overcall I like Garrazzo 2/3 doubles (exception, with very weak hand if they overcall below 2 of your major, you can rebid 2M which is weaker than pass, as we are forced to 2M). A pass by opener shows 1 or 4 cards in the bid suit, and a double shows 2 or 3.

some examples...
1S-(P)-2C-(2H); DBL shows 2 to 3 Hs
1S-(P)-2C-(2H); pass shows 1 or 4+ Hs
1S-(P)-2C-(2H); 3H shows a H void.
1S-(P)-2C-(2H); 2S shows no desire to play for penalty and weak hand
1S-(P)-2C-(X); RDBL = cards, game force, no good "C fit",
1S-(P)-2C-(X); Pass = equivalent to the 2D bid, waiting.
1S-(P)-2C-(X); 2D = this time real Ds and weak, not the waiting game
1S-(P)-2C-(X); 2H = real suit, not game force
1S-(P)-2C-(X); 2S = very weak, opening
1H-(P)-2C-(3S); DBL = 2/3 SPADES, PASS = 1 OR 4 spades

What I like about this, is that the semi-forcing 1NT can never include support for opener, that with weak hands and support, you raise directly. The risk of coming in over 2 as an opponent is amplified, as the 2 bidder can have a big balanced hand and with garrazzo doubles, they can get punished fairly quickly if opener has two cards in their suit and responder is balanced. The bidding structure I use to allow responder to unravel the three possible hand types (clubs-GF, balanced game invite or better, or some form of a raise) can be found here... 1/2 seat reverse drury (you may need to tweak it because certain normal hand types for opener are not possible in my methods after 1M opening).






--Ben--

#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,802
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-May-09, 10:32

View PostCSGibson, on 2012-May-09, 08:23, said:

This is wrong. The only hand that you can't sit this undoubled is opposite a game force with clubs. The invite can pass.

Our agreement is that opener's X shows interest opposite the invite but is a hand that doesn't fit clubs, 4C is a hand that fits clubs and is interested opposite an invite, and that pass is a hand that wasn't accepting the invite. This puts you in a much better position than, let's say, a 1M-1N (forcing)-(3) auction.

Doesn't this mean you're playing 4 or 3x opposite the 6 count if opener was interested opposite the invite ?

You may be in a better place than over a forcing no trump, but not as well off as you would be if you were able to bid 3 on the invite.
0

#10 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2012-May-09, 14:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-May-09, 10:32, said:

Doesn't this mean you're playing 4 or 3x opposite the 6 count if opener was interested opposite the invite ?

You may be in a better place than over a forcing no trump, but not as well off as you would be if you were able to bid 3 on the invite.


What 6 count? the 2 bid is at least invitational. And yes, it means we are playing 4 hearts or 3 spades X, or possibly 3N or whatever. Why do you think this is a problem?
Chris Gibson
0

#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,802
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-May-09, 16:14

View PostCSGibson, on 2012-May-09, 14:05, said:

What 6 count? the 2 bid is at least invitational. And yes, it means we are playing 4 hearts or 3 spades X, or possibly 3N or whatever. Why do you think this is a problem?

Sorry, misread of original post.

I can see issues where opener is not accepting the invite and you may not only be able to double 4 when you want to if 3 gets raised and the invite is held (I presume P/X are invite/GF over this), but this method seems to cover most of the bases.
0

#12 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2019-September-12, 09:53

2C relay write-up
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#13 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,169
  • Joined: 2011-November-21
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Overbidding

Posted 2019-September-12, 22:40

View Poststeve2005, on 2019-September-12, 09:53, said:

2C relay write-up


Inquiry's writeup is pretty good, what weve been playing with a few tweaks.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users