[Poky]

1♣ - Dbl - pa - 2♠*
pa - 2NT

* Natural, (8)9-11 with spades

Describe a hand for bidding Dbl and 2NT with it

[the hog]

19+ balanced

[whereagles]

Depends on what book you read. One possibility is

15-17: overcall 1NT
18+: bid 3NT
13-14: that must be it.. Kxx AQ Kxxx Qxxx

[Poky]

whereagles, on Nov 10 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

13-14: that must be it.. Kxx AQ Kxxx Qxxx

You usually double 1m with 3-2 in majors and 14 count?

[Free]

Absolute GF, slam try even, since it shows 18-20...

[Chamaco]

It shows bal hand + stopper, with at least a good 18.
So it is absolutely GF opposite the invitational raise by p.

BTW, someone please erase my vote for "NF but strongly invitational": when I voted I had not noticed the JUMP response by p.

[whereagles]

Poky, on Nov 10 2004, 03:02 PM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 10 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

13-14: that must be it.. Kxx AQ Kxxx Qxxx

You usually double 1m with 3-2 in majors and 14 count?

Sorry I though the opening was 1H. For opening 1C, the equivalent would be

Kxx
Qxxx
Kxxx
AQ

[inquiry]

I know of no way to modify votes... So your vote will stand with the observation that you didn't really mean it.

Now to the question at hand...

1C-X-P-2S
P-2NT

The way many people use takeout doubles these days (too many points to pass, not enough to overcall 1NT, what can I do? Or in my case, since my 1NT overcalls are raptor), require a change in the way you respond to a takeout double.

The fact is, most people play this jump to 2S as what, 8-11 hcp, four+ spades? I now believe this is not the optimal treatment. You need a better mechanism that keeps the bidding low until a fit is found (or in case no fit is found). So when jumps to two of a suit are available (as here after the intial double of 1C), the meanings should be....

• 1 of a suit = 0 to 10 points with a four card suit (yes, sometimes you will just have to bid a three card suit).
  
• 2 of a suit with 6 to 10 points and a five card suit (ok, the place where I first stole this idea --ETM Victory-- says 5-10 hcp with five card suit - if suit headed by KQ).
  
• 3 of suit = game invite, 11-12 with five card suit
  
• If rho bids over the double, jump bids same, lower limit on one bid raised up (but still four cards)

How this influences your bidding is, of course, someone dependent upon the meaning of your double and 1NT overcall. But if you had Whereagles balance 14 count with 3 spades to king, you will pass 2♠ in your 8 card fit with a max of 24 and a minimum of 19.

If you do play raptor 1NT, so a natural 1NT overcall is not available, you might choose 2NT here to be invite, with a normal 1NT overcall and no particular good spade fit. Responder with 9 or 10 hcp will bid game, with less might pass, or might introduce another suit. Or you could play 2NT as a range ask, or the like. If you use the normal 1NT overcall, of course, 2NT has to be forcing here.

Ben

[Flame]

With no agrement i would go with the strong version, but i think its a good idea to play something else since 18+ is rare and you can find another bid with it anyway.
So i would prefer the natural invitation way, or other conventional meaning.

[Gerben47]

Agree with inquiry that if you play Raptor this is invitational not forcing (probably with 3 spades). If not playing Raptor I think it still is the same, or do you overcall 1NT with this although a TO double is available? I think not.

KQx
Axxx
Qxxx
Ax