[HeartA]

junyi_zhu, on Nov 8 2004, 12:59 PM, said:

Without much discussion, it has to be RKC because you just have no other ways to RKC in this sequence without discussion. 4NT would be invitational here.
Also, a better treatment is to use 1N 2C 2h 3S as splinter in an unspecific suit and 3NT
as a relay to ask where it is for standard system. That saves two bids. Actually most
shortness showing conventions should adopt this principle because this way saves a lot of space and partner doesn't have to relay sometimes if his hand is no good to ask so opps would be in dark in that case.

I don't agree that 4NT after Stayman is quantitive, especially with the sequence I gave. 2C implies (at least one) major, not very flat hand, otherwise should 4NT directly. After Stayman and my 2H, 4NT as quantitive doesn't make sense, since I haven't denied 4-card spades yet. I prefer "only direct 4C is Gerber".

The gadgets "3S anonymous splinter" needs to discuss, not good for pick-up partners.

Anyway, the full hand was in my first post with hidden text. I like Eric's solution: bid 6H directly regardless what 4C is about.

[cf_John0]

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.
For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

Does anyone agree with me?

[inquiry]

cf_John0, on Nov 9 2004, 04:59 AM, said:

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.
For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

Does anyone agree with me?

I agree with you, ane welcome

Ben

[EarlPurple]

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A hand where Stayman followed by Gerber (or some other ace-ask) may be useful. You also happen to have a singleton club (if you didn't you should have the king). So if 4♣ is a splinter then when partner responds you could now bid 4NT which is surely ace-asking.

Don't know what I'd bid over 2♦ by partner, so maybe we'd need more agreements.

6♥ makes as long as we don't lose a quick diamond ruff. On a club lead the best play seems to be to win and ruff a club then test trumps. If they are 3-2 it is simple enough. (Draw trumps, throw last club on spade then knock out ♦A. If trumps are 4-1 we must lead a diamond ourselves, and with the suit 4-2 the opps do best to duck this as we can't now lead another one. But I can ruff the last club, draw the trumps and 4 spade tricks take the total to 12.

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Here is a hand where 4♣ as a splinter might be useful because you are hoping to hear partner bid 4♦ showing a top honour, after which you can ask for aces. But as here partner will not give you any diamond cue, you pass the 4♥ response avoiding the doomed slam.

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Here you want to know if partner has a diamond control so perhaps you can bid 4♣ not as a splinter but as a cue-bid agreeing hearts. If partner does cue-bid in diamonds you can then bid 4NT to ask for aces, but here when partner fails to show it to you and bids 4♥ you pass.

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So drawing a conclusion, perhaps 4♣ is not a splinter but simply a cue-bid agreeing hearts? In the first example, you simply use it on the way to ace-asking. On the latter two examples you wait first to see if partner can show you a diamond control.

You will note that on the one hand where Gerber worked, you could also manage without it. Therefore unless you can show me a hand where Gerber and only Gerber works (i.e. you want to ask for aces but may stop in the 4-level) after bidding Stayman, then I am not convinced.

[HeartA]

inquiry, on Nov 9 2004, 07:11 AM, said:

cf_John0, on Nov 9 2004, 04:59 AM, said:

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.
    For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

Does anyone agree with me?

I agree with you, ane welcome

Ben

Ben,
While most of the time you are right, this time I have to disagree. As I said in the previous post, after Stayman or something else to show interest in suit contract, 4NT as quantitive doesn't make sense anymore. I insist that only direct 4C over 1NT/2NT is Gerber. 4C as Splinter or another suit need discussion between partners, but I think the former is much more accepted and thus as default. After some bidding and then 4C is default as splinter, 4NT is RKC (or plain blackwood)

[EarlPurple]

because slam-bidding is not all about how many aces partner holds, but also about specific controls.

The reason most experts do not play Gerber in most situations (if any) is because the 4♣ bid has better use as part of a cue-bidding system.

[pclayton]

One of the problems in these auctions is agreeing trump at a low level and setting up a cooperative sequence.

Right now we have two choices: either take control with 4♣ key card or transfer the decision to partner with 4♣ as a splinter. Either way, captaincy is unilaterally established by one partner. Sure, the NT hand is somehwat defined, but its a bit much for the responder to have this latitude in the partnership decision making.

Earl has a sensible approach; 4♣ is a cue bid. However, why can't we have a lower level trump agreement which will allow us to start cue bidding?

Keri is a sensible idea and addresses some of these concerns. I predict that a lot of systemic development will take place in these Stayman auctions.